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Terry Holley
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Hi Vlad,

I can respond to every question that you have about verses, but I don't know what good it will do as I have no reason to believe that my answers will give you pause to think on it any further. I've studied the topic and I have landed where I am. You appear to have studied the topic and you have landed where you are. I can only agree with DelMagic (John) that the Gospel of John states why it is written (John 20:31 - "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name").

Therefore I believe that is the case: whoever believes in Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life. I refuse to add any works or what I consider to be other peripheral items. We either obtain eternal life through belief in Christ and Christ alone or we obtain it some other way. I think a good question is, "How would you respond to the Philippian jailor when he asked, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'” Would you answer be "belive on the Lord Jesus Christ" or would it be "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and ......"? I'm interested to know if you perform Gospel Magic what you actually say when explaining the Gospel. Or if you don't perfom Gospel Magic but did, what you would say when explaining the Gospel.

I also am concerned about the following sentence in your post above. You write, "I know of TWO Catholics who have stopped posting here because they told me that they have been attacked in PMs; I have also been the recipient of these attacks in open forum AND Pms - and by a few of you that have posted in THIS thread." My concern is that this statement could cause some readers to believe those who have posted in the thread, but haven't posted and PM'd such things as you state, have in fact done so. So I really think it is unfair to make those statements unless you are going to name names. I am not suggesting that you do name names, just stating that I feel what you have written is unfair to those of us who have never made such statements via PM's or open forum. When you state "a few of you that have posted in THIS thread", you don't leave too many people out if you take the time to look at who has posted differing opinions to yours! I feel it is important for me to state I have never attacked anyone in that manner, unless you feel that asking questions and stating views as I have done in this thread is attacking.

Bottom line for me is that it is probably best to agree to disagree.

Best,

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
DelMagic
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We have seen many magicians attack other magicians here so I wouldn't doubt that some may have attacked Vlad or other people here for their opinions on Biblical matters. I can't see how that is useful at all. The truth of the propositions should be our focus - not the person who states a proposition. Regardless of our differences on these matters, we ought to "Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer every one."
Stephon Johnson
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We (Christians) are to be known for our "love for one another" or "for the brethren". In a public forum, such as this, we should go out of our way to be gracious to one another - even in doctrinal or theological disagreements. What a shame for an unbeliever to wander onto the "Good News" page out of curiosity or seeking answers, and come away with the impression that we are no different than the world?
"In the essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity" is a good motto to keep in mind on these threads. I am a member of the RCUS, and thus solidly Reformed doctrine, Covenant Theology and a Calvinist. That puts me diametrically opposed to some on this thread in our core beliefs. It's EASY to get heated about such important issues and take comments personally (I'm guilty of succumbing on occasion) because we are still in a fallen world and a body corrupted by sin.
Let's take time today to pray for each other, our witness to the world, and our common desire to glorify God in all things we do, as written in 1 Corinthians 10: 23-33 and Colossians 3:23.
We don't know who is truly saved and who isn't, that's For God alone. But I can say that if my words anger you or brought a scoff to your lips, you should examine yourself to see that you are truly in the faith - and pray that God soften your heart.
Blessings!
Stephon
WHAT IF you wake up tomorrow with ONLY the things that you THANK GOD for today?
Mel Yoder
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I would like to thank the staff at Magic Café for keeping this thread open even though we have ventured off the main topic somewhat.I have no ill feelings towards anyone.Whatever I do or say needs to be in love.I was thinking we were more in a discussion.We all look at things different and sure don't want to judge.If I see something that does not seem right I fill responsable.In Luke 13:3 we see (I tell you, Nay: but except yee repent, ye shall all likewise perish.)Then we see in Acts where they are still repenting for their sins.If someone wants to pick a book out in between and rest there salvation in it,is up to them.Then we see in 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slacke côcerning his promise (as some men count slacknesse) but is long-suffring to vs-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.I do not plain on posting on this thread again unless someone has a questian.Thanks everyone for helping in my Gospel magic.My main goal in life is to be witness unto a lost and dieing world.
Mel
Theodore Lawton
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I stayed away from this thread when I saw where it was going and only came back hoping someone had intervened with some sense. Maybe intervention earlier was what was needed. Stephon is right in stating: What a shame for an unbeliever to wander onto the "Good News" page out of curiosity or seeking answers, and come away with the impression that we are no different than the world?

All the division in the church is caused by men- not Christ or the Scriptures. Fallible men interpret things incorrectly or argue about the correct interpretation. We should be united in the bond of love for one another. If we see that a brother has a differing opinion to ours we can swallow our pride and PM them with our ideas and beliefs concerning various Scriptures.

We need to represent the union that we have in Christ to the world and let them be exposed to any possible differing opinions when they come to the knowledge of Christ. We should not be showing ourselves to be a bunch of spiritually immature, bickering children in an open forum. The salvation of the lost and dying is more important than winning a theological argument in public. Show some humility. Show some restraint. Show the love of Christ with a gentle answer. Represent the things that the world needs to the lost, not what they already have. As followers of Christ we have both- the sinful struggles of our flesh, but we also have salvation. We have peace with God. We are eternally saved from going to hell and should be more concerned with sharing that hope than anything else.

I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, Ephesians 4:1-6

Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; Philippians 2:3

Lastly- is this bickering getting anyone anywhere? How shameful for brothers to be dragging their disputes into the public arena. The question we need to stop and ask ourselves is: Am I bringing glory to Christ in all of this?

We need to consider everything we do and whether it is bringing God glory. We often enough fail in our daily lives without thinking about it. Let's give a forum more careful consideration since here we can stop to think with much more time and less compulsion than many of our daily decisions and let us choose give glory to the Lord here in the Good News section of the Café.

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 10:31
Magic is the bacon in the breakfast of life.

............................................

God bless you and have a magical day
DelMagic
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Mel,

I would concur with your assessment. We were havinga a discussion regarding a topic which is probably important when finding a new church. Yes, it was a doctrinal exchange, but how our discussion could be viewed in a negative light (aside from just disagreement) I am a little puzzled. I didn't see any animosity from Mel, Terry, Vlad or myself. Differences for sure, but nothing personal. The flaming PMs mentioned came from others at other times - not the people involved in this. (at least, that is how I read it)

Mel and I seem to have the same view of this. "I have no ill feelings towards anyone.Whatever I do or say needs to be in love.I was thinking we were more in a discussion.We all look at things different and sure don't want to judge.If I see something that does not seem right." I didn't perceive any personal ungraciousness and I surely wouldn't characterize the posts as bickering. I'm happy that Mel feels comfortable interacting with me on the most important quesiton in the world. Given that, I'll gladly put up with a little grief should it come my way, but I didn't perceive it nor was I trying to dish any out. I have nothing but respect for Mel, Vlad and Terry and I look forward to discussions in the future - even on Acts 2:38!
MagicBus
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Yikes, if I have ever been guilty of sniping away at someone else- please forgive me. I think the thing the jerks my chain the most is when believers of whatever ilk are characterized as uneducated bozos who are blind to science and reason.

As I have posted many times before, my own personal journey has been through a large number of denominations and churches, and I have the great pleasure of having wonderful loving relatives and respected lawyer friends who hold all manner of religious views. I appreciate The Magic Café' so much, and I think they are more than willing to keep up decent threads that have not become snarky or personal belief attacks.

Thanks again to all for posting above, I try to read what I can but not always have the time to pitch in on the discussion. I personally think more and more folks worldwide are unaware of basic Biblical teaching, even in this day of the worldwide web and access to just about any Bible translation instantly.

I have found as I get older that just reading The Bible is beneficial, combined with a good Bible commentary. Right now I am going through the Book of Acts in a Saturday morning breakfast group- and I really have enjoyed using Phil Moore's small "Straight to the Heart of Acts" book as reinforcement. Phil Moore is pastor of the Everyday Church in Wimbledon, England- and I was amazed to watch his sermons on my cell phone on Acts that were posted on their church web site. This is all just incredible to me- I pick up a paperback book at a Kalamazoo, Michigan bookstore from an author from another country- Google his name- and then be linked to his live lectures posted on youtube. Wow, Wow, Wow. Wimbledon is blessed to have the young Phil Moore taking a pastorate there in 2010- he knows his Hebrew and Greek well but still preaches and writes in a very practical way. I am sure an English Pastor Moore does not know an FCMer/magician in Michigan has been currently this week been benefitting from his insights on the book of Acts.

As I have indicated before, my wife and I have settled into a wonderful church over the past 3 years, it is a blessing to have a church "home" that you really both love and can become an active part of. http://www.DiscoverLighthouseChurch.com I wish you all here on The Magic Café' that same blessing.

P.S. on the above: Every Sunday morning in the large children's Sunday School class my wife teaches, I do at least three Gospel magic effects. That is just one way I knew from early on for me- our church quickly put us both to work in ministries that we both enjoyed- including given speaking parts in last December's "Living Nativity" (which 1,600+ showed up for in extremely cold weather). A church you belong to should be able to recognize and use your spiritual gifts.
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2014-01-07 10:44, DelMagic wrote:
We have seen many magicians attack other magicians here so I wouldn't doubt that some may have attacked Vlad or other people here for their opinions on Biblical matters. I can't see how that is useful at all. The truth of the propositions should be our focus - not the person who states a proposition. Regardless of our differences on these matters, we ought to "Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer every one."




Bless you DelMagic for your words.

My friends, I am not here to snipe, criticize, or whatever. All I have ever asked in this section of The Café is to please remember that some Christians are Orthodox Catholic, some are Roman Catholic, some are Coptic Orthodox.

We are a minority in this section of the forum, yet, these three churches are the the most ancient in Christianity. We do not believe nor accept sola scriptura and sola fide. Ironically, I could cite Scripture that refutes both, but that is not the point. If indeed we are supposed to be about Christian fellowship, then why is it wrong when I read something that as a Christian I find I need to question? Would my sister and brother Christians really wish to silence me? Are we not all seekers? None of us can comprehend God in His Essence. God in His Essence is beyond all understanding. Theologian Vladimir Lossky (LOL no I am not he) talked about "divine darkness." All of you will recall from Scripture that Moses was surrounded in darkness and lightning when in the Presence of God. Scripture does not attempt to explain God in His Essence as the prophets and the saints who wrote the books collectively known as The Bible were divinely inspired, but, that inspiration did not include comprehension of God in His Essence, that is to say His Totality.

Yes, there are divisions. And my dear family they are tragic. But, if we do not dialogue, where are we then? What does silence accomplish? Do not couples who are having issues in their marriages try to communicate? When we disagree with a friend, that does not mean that the friendship is over. Rather, we communicate. Christ promised that we shall be as one and that the gates of darkness shall not prevail. I believe that God works THROUGH us for we are made in the Image and Likeness of Him. We are called to be as Christ-like as possible. Yet remember that our Lord did not fear to speak out.

I do NOT doubt the piety of any of you. I do not come here to say that Holy Orthodoxy is superior to Protestantism. I do however feel that as a Christian, I should feel loved as a brother and as a brother be able to talk to you my family. For our TRUE family is the bond we share as believers.

That being said, I do apologize if any of my remarks offended anyone. That was never my intent nor will it ever be. Very soon I will be creating a thread at the beginning of Orthodox Lent. Please let me explain.

We begin Great and Holy Lent on what we call "Forgiveness Sunday." On that day, after Divine Liturgy, we all circle in the temple and we go around and ask forgiveness of our sisters and brothers. I pray for yours when I post.

Bless all of you,

Vlad
Craig Logan
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Good to see brotherly love returning to this thread. I came out of a church culture where I heard Catholicism was a cult and denomination X, Y, and Z were ***ed for their peripheral doctrines.

We must stand up for our faith and defend it, but we must be nothing but loving to others here on this forum and elsewhere. We are after all, His epistles, His letters to the world. 2 Corinthians 3:2 "Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:" Let us always be careful what others read when they see us.

In His Service,
CM
"A wizard is not to be made in a day." -Professor Hoffmann (Modern Magic)
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2014-01-10 07:51, mediocre_magic wrote:
Good to see brotherly love returning to this thread. I came out of a church culture where I heard Catholicism was a cult and denomination X, Y, and Z were ***ed for their peripheral doctrines.

We must stand up for our faith and defend it, but we must be nothing but loving to others here on this forum and elsewhere. We are after all, His epistles, His letters to the world. 2 Corinthians 3:2 "Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:" Let us always be careful what others read when they see us.

In His Service,
CM


As a former Roman Catholic who is now an Eastern Orthodox Catholic, I thank you ask God's blessing for your kind words. There are many who still believe that Catholicism is a cult. Jack Chick and others have made a career out of bearing such false witness. Your words have made me smile. Thank you for that gift.

In Christ,
Vlad
Terry Holley
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Dare I get this thread back "online"?

We haven't heard from Steven, the creator of this thread, since November 28! On that date he stated he would be attending a new church the following Sunday.

Steven...how are you doing?

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Steven True
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Sorry it has taken me so long to get back on here. I have attended a nice church close to my home. Was greeted by a number of people but not a lot, then again I did slip in undetected and sit in the back. I do want to thank all of you that responded to my original post. The thread kind of took on a life of its own. So many of you sent me private messages of help and encouragement it was overwhelming. Nice to have a place to have magicians helping magicians but even better to have Christian magicians helping like you all did. I can't name everyone here that helped me through this time but it has put a renewed and revived excitement in my heart and soul. Thank you all and please continue to pray not only for me but the many that are out there looking but remain silent. God is great and loving to us all.

In Christ

Steven True
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