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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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the democratic question has been with us since ancient Athens - and they had no problems with slavery and war. Athens was not a democracy. There hasn't been a democracy yet: i.e. the equal participation of people making decisions in the political, economic, and social realms which affect them. The American Experiment was just that, an experiment. It succeeded in some very important respects: 1) in its consolidation of the overthrow of feudalism so that royal birth was no longer enough to give one power, and 2) in its articulation of what rights might be guaranteed for white male property owners. Not minor accomplishments by any stretch of the imagination. But with the hindsight of 250 years, we can now say that there were failures too. One, of course, that the extension of those guarantees were very long coming to other than white male property owners; two, unsolved was the ability of the articulated political system to be completely corrupted by the wealthy so as to render it meaningless as a vehicle for carrying out the will of the people; and three, its inability to articulate a way in the economic sphere to prevent the wealthy from oppressing workers. So any analysis of our current untenable situation has to include those last three factors. In particular the third item speaks to the relationship between worker and employer. The root of our situation is not money, nor even love of money, but, in my opinion, the essential nature of a system where a large proportion of a society must sell their labor power to others and never have ownership of what they've made, and often cannot afford with their wages to buy what they made. The implications of that simple relationship has wide ranging implications. The idea of a jubilee year for example i.e. periodic cancelling of debts, was long recognized as a necessary factor for societies to stay healthy and productive. But under current economic relations that is considered unthinkable? Why the change? In the 18th and 19th centuries even economists like Adam Smith were making the distinction between earned income made by producing actual goods and services, and the parasitic unearned income which was made by the rentier class--the financiers, the real estate and landowners, who produced no tangible goods for the society, but merely woke up the next morning to find more money in their pockets, their wealth increased, without having lifted a finger, but only because of what they had or who they were. This was well understood to be merely another form of feudal divine right. Here were the real deadbeats and malingerers. They extracted from the economy without putting equal worth in. And at a certain point--the point we are at today in the US, and so the world, it has become easier and less problematic for capitalists to accrue their wealth by taking their interest, rather than actually even producing something. There is more incentive for a CEO to manipulate his stock price than to improve the quality of his product. Economists like Smith wanted to heavily tax unearned income to discourage its formation. Of course, it's unsustainable. That's the crisis we find ourselves in. Because there are these inherent contradictions within our current economic system: the drive to cut costs on the one hand, while the working class can no longer afford to buy the products they make; the goal of profit to incentivize manufacturing, but the opposite incentive of profit to move capital into the non-productive financial sectors. So yes, any attempt to change things will require a study of this. And for people to understand what their own self-interest might really be, de-mystified from the memes of the ruling class.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
It is no more unsustainable than any other alternative you propose.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Senor Fabuloso Inner circle 1243 Posts |
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On May 9, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote: Then flip the script. Organize the people to hold the government responsible for all it does. With accountability comes responsibility and moral judgment. Without it, those in power have no incentive to be driven by morals ethics and good values. Unfortunately and this is true of all people the ease at which we are able to do bad things grows exponentially as we we have greater access to corruptible influences. Politicians for example want but one thing and that's to stay in office as long as possible. This lust for power in continuum places a "love of money" above everything. Even when they know something is wrong the lobbyists control their votes through campaign contributions. So the people must reject the money spent on ads and propaganda focusing on pat performance both in personal life and publicly. This is why truth and facts matter. Experts in fields must be listened to as we don't know what they know. In addressing the OP there can be no doubt that climate change does exists. The why matters less than the what to do about it. All you need to do is look to your state of California to see how car emissions affect air quality. This should be all the proof your nation and all nations for that matter need to do something.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.
If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On May 9, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote: How's that going where you are? Aside from the Catalan matter: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/m......atalonia Is there much government/people accountability there? Free press to at least raise issues of questions on the topic?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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RNK Inner circle 7493 Posts |
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On May 9, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote: Um. Ok. You are correct on one aspect, the climate has always changed since the Earth formed.
Check out Bafflingbob.com
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
How is the California economy doing?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On May 9, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ca......ory.html World's fifth largest economy? Impressive.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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It sounds like you're talking of a pure "majority rules" type of thing. Is it your intention to have each citizen vote on each issue, and have the majority, however slim, decide? There are lots of ways to make democratic decisions aside from the most common plurality wins rule common in the US. We're not used to exploring alternative schemes here, because there's frankly not a lot of interest in democracy by the Powers That Be. But there are researchers and groups who have looked at alternatives such as consensus: (think jury trials) http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/Consensus.html IRV voting (think ranked voting systems): http://archive.fairvote.org/index.php?page=178 parecon (think self-management at the workplace): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics proportional representation (think parliaments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation parpolity (think nested councils) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_politics No one system is going to be appropriate to all situations; but the point is that there has been quite a bit of thought given to this, and these are the kinds of conversations that should be happening in a society dedicated to trying to achieve democracy. Given technology that wasn't available until this generation, I would expect new ideas and possibilities to be opening up as well.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
It is frought with WAY more problems and opportunities for corruption than the current system.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
It? (Democracy in general?)
I'm proposing a relationship between social climate and weather pattern change. Roughly cricket chirps to temperature. This after noticing how Taleb's book reads as more grouchy than earlier works. And yes it's about accountability, or as he puts it "skin in the game".
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
@Landmark: Gnomon (see Witness)
and Quote: -Nassim Taleb (2018, Skin in the Game- from chapter 1)
A saying by the brothers Geoff and Vince Graham summarizes the ludicrousness of scale-free political universalism. on Democracy itself - see the latest trend in social media addiction and opinion polarization coming out as tragedy among folks using Facebook as town hall for social dialog. Has anyone here seen any interesting patents lately for better technology?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
That's interesting about the scale issue. But it also holds in terms of how we make decisions. There's no reason we have to have the same decision-making system at each level. We could have consensus at the very local level, and ranked voting at higher levels, for example. But if you click on the last link in my prior post, you'll find a very interesting nested councils scheme that seems to be able to function at a variety of levels. (Full disclosure--that's my brother).
One reason people perceive themselves as differently politically at different scales is in itself partly because of the lack of feeling that one's voice would be heard at a given level. Someone who votes libertarian at a federal level may well do so because s/he feels doubtful that reps at that level are going to really act in her interest, while having more faith in local officials. The "town hall"/Facebook polarization that you speak of no doubt exists. But I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. I believe a lot in free speech, and people should be free to speak their voices loudly. Of course, I am against manipulating who can speak, but I see the Internet as a media tool that gives voice to those who had no voice in the era when access to media was limited to the elite. If online banking transactions are relatively secure, there's no reason why voting online cannot be made secure as well.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
So your new system will have no corruption, and will be "fair" to everyone right? If not, then what is the need for change? Because the amount of corruption within that system seems astronomical.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
@Danny, every human is human.
The question is whether good for the greatest IS the greater good?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Animated Puppets Loyal user Lost on a Green Screen 285 Posts |
Chiming in... the problem is not with corruption for it has/will be always been there.
The problem is complacency. Unfortunately, moral outrage does not require one to get out of their armchairs. Chiming out.
I still recall the day I met Beaker from the Muppets. He said to me "Meep, meep, mee mee mee Meep!", and that has made all the difference.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Better as claimed by whom? Landmark sees a victim every chance he gets.
It is ridiculous to claim some system with absolutely no corruption will suddenly just appear because people will it to happen.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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It is ridiculous to claim some system with absolutely no corruption will suddenly just appear because people will it to happen. Suddenly just appear? Good Lord, where have I ever claimed that? All change requires struggle. I would never claim otherwise. Quote:
The question is whether good for the greatest IS the greater good? Yes, fair question. In the particular, not necessarily always, but probably more so than any other system.. In the general, yes. That is, the general principle is greater than any one individual result. I take it as axiomatic, based on the axiom that "All people deserve equal say in matters that affect them." If one contests that, and says that only white rich males should make decisions for themselves and others, I don't really have much to counter that with except we have very different beliefs. And again it depends on the decision-making process used. At a scale where consensus can be used, then there is no problem of the majority imposing its will on a minority. At a larger scale where consensus becomes impossible, I'm certainly not averse to a Bill of Rights which lays out rights which cannot be abridged, even with the will of the majority.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Re-reading Danny's comment; I'm thinking I was misunderstanding what his focus was on; I think, if I'm not misunderstanding now, that Danny's contention is that corruption will appear in any political process.
So, two replies to that: 1) it may be that corruption can appear under any system--but that doesn't then mean that all political systems are therefore equivalent. If it were so, then we would have allowed the Germans and Japanese to win during WWII. So I think you have to admit to some distinctions. 2) Where does corruption come from? Because, for the most part, some people wish to have more money and/or power than others. This suggests that in societies that have less built-in inequality, there is less corruption, and vice-versa. Some research seems to support this hypothesis: https://repository.library.georgetown.ed......quence=1
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
So the whole system has to go? Out with it all. I like when your honest about it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
You're the one that said the system is rife with corruption and there was no sense in expecting accountability. Yet you want to keep it. Why?
Let's face it. From a point of self-interest, if a person is one of the lucky few who benefit from the system, it makes sense that you would want to keep it, despite the corruption and unaccountability. If you are not one of the lucky few, however, but more like the many who do not have any real say in the decisions that affect you, then it makes sense to want to change it.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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