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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
YOUR system is worse by FAR.
Sorry but historically this system you so hate has risen more people out of hunger and poverty than any other in existence ever. This is only disputed by those of you who want to abolish it for a non existent Utopia. It will NEVER happen, but for you the juice is just being able to complain. When you compare fantasy world Utopia with reality, well Utopia ALWAYS wins. Is that a shock? But it is fantasy. Also when you say "the lucky few" I know it is intentional but it is offensive as can be. It is not always "luck" that brings people to success. You want to pretend all people are equal and bring equal work to the program. But sorry to explain this to you but people are different and many who have reached success did so without anything that resembles luck. But for your philosophy to be valid, everyone has to be equal and it is by shear luck that anyone ever gets ahead. That is nonsense. It is right out of Rules for Radicals and it is bs and always has been. Communism does not work. It keeps people down and is oppressive. Sorry but history is just not on your side.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Teddy Meagher New user 53 Posts |
Is this thread still about Global Warming or just on how to run a government?
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On May 11, 2018, Teddy Meagher wrote: Basically, who gets to decide whether you can build a road, water the lawn or go to war with your neighbors who decided to build a factory running on coal.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
YOUR system is worse by FAR. My system, democracy, has yet to be tried. Capitalism has killed millions, exploited millions more, and is currently driving millions to hunger and poverty. Capitalism is like a balloon mortgage: you get the great initial teaser rate and lots of Coke and French Fries, and then a few years later, you're in debt and homeless. In 1990s Russia, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the results of capitalist "shock therapy" were becoming apparent, there was a saying: "Everything Marx said about communism was wrong, but everything he said about capitalism was right." But those who benefit from it are understandably quite tenacious in clinging to it. @Teddy: sorry if this side dialogue on political forms is offtopic, so I'll leave it there, unless anyone thinks its integral to the Climate change topic. It's just after 200 pages, I think we can expand our horizons a little more in the thread.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Since it is the new home of Marxists it is the same thing.
If your system has never been tried it had zero track record and trying it is a stupid idea.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
And the prior track record of the Bill of Rights...?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Regardless of your Alinsky tactics and nonsense it has been better for the most people and a billion times better than any form of Socialism.
I mean use both words. You don't want democracy. You want democratic socialism. Be honest about it. And it does not work. The Soviet Union collapsed not because of capitalism, it collapsed because it was a flawed system to begin with. But keep rewriting history like Alinsky. It is the only way that Utopia can ever work.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On May 11, 2018, landmark wrote: Let's call your political opponent "them" and basically it's up to you to prove to "them" that they'd be happier, safer or at least unable to compete with your proposed system. Prove it has competitive advantage against other strategies. How well does it do in something like the "game of life" where you can watch iterations?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
You're leaving out "how well does it do"...for whom? No sense me arguing that it's better for billionaires. I freely admit that democracy isn't pleasant for those of that class. The elite have always been terrified of democracy and have always moved to crush any potential outbreaks in that direction. They spend an enormous amount of time, money, and military hardware in that endeavor.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
The Soviet Union collapsed not because of capitalism, it collapsed because it was a flawed system to begin with. The Soviet Union collapsed because it was not a democratic society. Lenin very soon after 1917 revolution repudiated the democratic councils. And with the 1990 turn to capitalism instead of democracy, they went straight from the fire to the frying pan.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Again prove your claims don't just assert them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On May 11, 2018, landmark wrote: ...do for a functioning nation-state, army, individual - pick your arena of contest. Try the game of Go - do you let your pieces pick their place on the board or put them where you want them? It remains to be seen that what you propose has advantage (to anyone else) beyond viral propagation of: <what you claim is THE correct interpretation of your system(C)(TM)(R)> which by its nature comes at cost to others who spend time interpreting and doing what you claim to be best... which is not democratic policy decision process, by the way. The King announces his latest update to our democracy and promises his subjects that within a scholastic generation there will be a significant reduction of royal troops in the street outside your homes. Long live the King!
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
As I said Jon, I can't prove an axiom. If you don't think that political, social, and economic decisions should be made by those people who are affected by those decisions, no magic wand of rhetoric by me is going to change that. I linked to several ways of moving in that direction. It's up to you whether you want to be part of that or not. I have no spreadsheet that calculates the advantages of democracy over oligarchy and disenfranchisement, because we could well disagree over what would be a valued outcome.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yes so the constant complaining and misrepresentation of history is your go to argument.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I doubt there are many here who wish to become a memory of collateral damage or a statistic. Similarly I doubt anyone here would wish to not participate in discussion about resources or social processes which impinge upon their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Those notions are not under test and instead may well be thought of as axiomatic.
This is not about an abstraction or ideal. This topic is most base, basic. Let's simply look at what is and proceed to reason about what we find. It's about the cost and limits of using a "bureaucratic process or voting" when the environment itself is under threat by competition - eminent domain. An army that stops to vote and stops again to rewrite its code of conduct while in battle might not fare too well against an opponent whose soldiers simply proceed as ordered. The practical concern of getting out of a burning house usually takes precedence over our interest in improving the building codes, construction process and safety inspection of houses at the moment. Zeno's paradox and "moving in that direction" work in discussion of hypotheticals. Our policy discussions and cost accounting do not include "external costs" within the affected system. Magic. Our policy making process is what it is at the moment. Others have their own policy making process.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Your military example is a straw man. The populace can decide how to handle that--just as the fellows back in 1776 thought that there must be a civilian as the Commander in Chief. Democracy doesn't preclude that. As I stated before, there are lots of different styles of democratic decision making and not all are appropriate for all levels of decisions.
As for your competitors' decision-making processes, I believe democracy is robust enough to defend itself against outside competitors. When you get torturers to head your security services, as we are about to get, under the guise of "we must protect ourselves," then there's very little left worth defending in my opinion. The burning house at this moment is the threat (and reality) of oligarchy and monopoly of resources by those whose only interest is profit; the evisceration of any meaningful say in what affects us. The rest is misdirection. Quote:
I doubt anyone here would wish to not participate in discussion about resources or social processes which impinge upon their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Those notions are not under test and instead may well be thought of as axiomatic. I disagree. That is the elephant in the room. I think there are many who give lip service to such notions, but find every reason and opportunity to challenge them in actuality.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On May 11, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote: Since you believe I must prove everything stated on a magic board, I await your footnotes for your version of history.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
#ClimateChange, #AGW... sells tee-shirts to those who seek justification in a cause that's as easy to maintain as looking at TV weather reports.
Ah yes that elephant. Polemic Political Patter follows: Rumor has it her name is Complicity. Maybe she comes and goes behind false walls decorated in the finest tradition and empty promises. Or maybe under the dusty rug of ancient history. No she's not behind the mirror of denial. Really. You gotta believe me. Somehow the elephant vanishes into a cloud of ignorance. The audience remembers the word as complacency... nice trick - that was a real elephant? Would you like to buy a time-share on a bridge? Saw your mention of ATM transaction reliability as evidence we could do better with direct representation. Agreed. Let's avoid repeating the worst of Stalin's time in the name of providing enfranchisement/entitlement to all good citizens of our homeland. #CheckYourConfirmationBias
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kil......_regimes
https://www.google.com/amp/s/reason.com/......tury/amp
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Did you think that I approved of Stalin's politics or mass killings? Another straw man. In fact I said a few posts ago explicitly that Lenin abandoned democracy very soon after 1917.
Wonderful the mass hysteria when the word democracy is mentioned. BTW, did you miss this from the second article you quoted: "The combined death tolls of WWI (37 million) and WWII (66 million) exceed communism’s total by only 9 million." That's the World Wars brought to us courtesy of capitalism.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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