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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Is cheating a casino wrong? (8 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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brehaut
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Simple question
tommy
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Yes
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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brehaut
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Quote:
On 2013-10-31 13:17, tommy wrote:
Yes


Then let me ask this---is it wrong that they play games that are basically rigged? Also is it wrong to take their money when they make a mistake and pay you too much (i.e pay a push in blackjack, etc)?
stoneunhinged
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Cheating is good.
Marlin1894
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Quote:
Then let me ask this---is it wrong that they play games that are basically rigged?


No one is holding a gun to your head.

Quote:
Also is it wrong to take their money when they make a mistake and pay you too much (i.e pay a push in blackjack, etc)?


If the guy at the gas station gives you too much change, or a bank teller mistakenly gives you too much money, is it wrong to keep it?

I'd have to say it's wrong to cheat a casino. Then again Tolstoy says "“It's not given to people to judge what's right or wrong. People have eternally been mistaken and will be mistaken, and in nothing more than in what they consider right and wrong.”

So, you know. Who knows?
brehaut
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On 2013-10-31 14:22, Marlin1894 wrote:
Quote:
Then let me ask this---is it wrong that they play games that are basically rigged?


No one is holding a gun to your head.

Quote:
Also is it wrong to take their money when they make a mistake and pay you too much (i.e pay a push in blackjack, etc)?


If the guy at the gas station gives you too much change, or a bank teller mistakenly gives you too much money, is it wrong to keep it?

I'd have to say it's wrong to cheat a casino. Then again Tolstoy says "“It's not given to people to judge what's right or wrong. People have eternally been mistaken and will be mistaken, and in nothing more than in what they consider right and wrong.”

So, you know. Who knows?


I make a distinction between a wrong pay off at a casino and too much change from the gas station. The difference being the Casino has set up a game with everything in their favor. They do everything they can to get all the money from you. They let you play their games with the odds in their favor (if you are skilled, they ban you). They give you free drinks to alter your judgment. Casinos are greedy. They really do want your last nickel. Part of their business is paying out accurately, etc. If they do not do that well, I will take advantage of that just like they take advantage of everything else. If I'm at a bank or the gas station, I return the money. It is different.
Marlin1894
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Some would say "big oil" and giant financial institutions are greedy, corrupt, and don't give the "little guy" much of a break either. I see no difference. To me, business is business. And the business of business is business.
Cagliostro
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Several months ago I was playing a casino table game with cards at a major Las Vegas hotel casino. The name of the game is not important but it is not Blackjack.

I was sitting center table and a player on one end of the table tossed in a $100 bill for change. The dealer cut out the correct number of chips, got distracted by the floorman swiping the player’s “player card” in the table computer and accidentally knocked the bill towards me. I pushed it back to the dealer and he cut out another $100 in chips thinking it was a new $100 bill and I wanted change. I stopped him and said, with the floorman standing there, “the bill belongs to the other gentleman, accidentally got pushed to me and change has already been made to him. Please take back the hundred in chips.”

Now why did I do that? Think about it. Was it because I am morally perfect, above reproach and believe that only an ignoble lout would take advantage of a casino error? Of course, that is one possibility. However, in this instance the answer is if the sky caught me receiving money that was not mine it would bring me heat which I don’t need and could look like possible collusion with the dealer. By returning the bill and correcting the mistake, I prevented that possibility and subliminally conveyed to the dealer, floor and sky that I am an honest square john, above reproach and don’t need their hundred dollars.

Since I already had (and still have), a legitimate non-cheating edge on the game, the honest square john image is worth much more to me than the $100. Smile
brehaut
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On 2013-10-31 15:03, Marlin1894 wrote:
Some would say "big oil" and giant financial institutions are greedy, corrupt, and don't give the "little guy" much of a break either. I see no difference. To me, business is business. And the business of business is business.


I think I make a separeate distinction between casinos and other businesses by thinking this way: a casino is unique. They are in business to do everything they can to take my money from me. Therefore, I will do everything I can take their money from them.
Marlin1894
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Well, that's one way to look at it. To me the purpose of every business is to separate the consumer from their money. If the business is operated legally then the ethical and moral issues (if any) are up to the individual business operators. The consumer is ALWAYS free to walk away. Especially when it comes to something like casino gambling.

I play in casinos sometimes and I don't begrudge them anything. I know the score. Frankly, if I were running one myself the only thing I would probably do differently is make it even harder for the chumps who walk in the door. Because sure as day follows night, they will keep coming. Guys with chips on their shoulder would be my favorites. I'd gladly take the "you do your best to take my money and I'll do my best to take yours" proposition from the side of a casino operator over a patron every time. Even with the occasional cheater thrown in. At the end of the day you might get a sandwich out of them, but most likely they are gonna make a meal out of you.
brehaut
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Quote:
On 2013-10-31 16:01, Marlin1894 wrote:
Well, that's one way to look at it. To me the purpose of every business is to separate the consumer from their money. If the business is operated legally then the ethical and moral issues (if any) are up to the individual business operators. The consumer is ALWAYS free to walk away. Especially when it comes to something like casino gambling.

I play in casinos sometimes and I don't begrudge them anything. I know the score. Frankly, if I were running one myself the only thing I would probably do differently is make it even harder for the chumps who walk in the door. Because sure as day follows night, they will keep coming. Guys with chips on their shoulder would be my favorites. I'd gladly take the "you do your best to take my money and I'll do my best to take yours" proposition from the side of a casino operator over a patron every time. Even with the occasional cheater thrown in. At the end of the day you might get a sandwich out of them, but most likely they are gonna make a meal out of you.



True all businesses want your money but they are also usally offering to give you a product or service. Casinos are truely in the business of "I want your money and you want my money". Maybe taking a wrong payout seems wrong, but is it right for them to offer games where only they have the advantage? And also, if casinos said, "we will let everyone come do their best to take our money" than I may have a different opinion. But they don't---they refuse to let skilled players play. Only chumps. Also, on this forum we may all know what we are getting into but does the average joe know the futility of beating the casino? Just some thoughts.
tommy
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A casino is a business which sells amusement and their profit comes from their edge, business's exist to make a profit. Why anyone would want to cheat such a beautiful business I don't know.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Marlin1894
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Quote:
On 2013-10-31 16:38, tommy wrote:
A casino is a business which sells amusement.


Exactly. To most people a casino is no different than an amusement park. Does the average joe know what they are up against? Probably not. But they know they are probably going to lose, just like when a person buys a lottery ticket.

In fact many people go into casinos with a predetermined amount of money that they EXPECT to lose. They hope they will win but they know they probably won't. Hope springs eternal and all that, but they treat the loss as the price of admission and the cost of being entertained. Now, why someone would consider losing money to a casino a fun nights entertainment is beyond me, but that's a whole different story.
Tony45
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Its only wrong if you get caught.
silverking
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Cheating in a casino (or anywhere for that matter) first requires a person to be morally corrupt.

Now, I'm not one to focus to heavily on what's right and what's wrong - but in all my 57 years I've never met a single person that wasn't more or less morally corrupt to some degree on one level or another.

Anybody can, and anybody will cheat if the circumstances are right for them such that they think they can get away with it, and the entity they're cheating doesn't raise their concern as cheating them possibly being "wrong".

If I saw an old lady drop a twenty dollar bill, I'd call out and give it back to her......but that doesn't indicate at all whether I've got redeeming qualities otherwise.

So, I'd say that if you're willing to cheat a casino, and do so without guilt, you've found your moral turpitude has been firmly established.
brehaut
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So for everyone who says that they would give back a wrong payout at a casino (i.e dealer pays a push), do you also notify the dealer or the casino that he is flashing his hole card? Both involve sloppy mistakes on part of the dealer or casino training.
silverking
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You confuse that action which YOU participate in (accept money that isn't yours) vs. something that the CASINO does (hire a dealer that flashes a card).

They're different.
brehaut
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Quote:
On 2013-11-01 09:43, silverking wrote:
You confuse that action which YOU participate in (accept money that isn't yours) vs. something that the CASINO does (hire a dealer that flashes a card).

They're different.


Not sure I agree with than analogy but is it wrong to sit in a position where I can see the hole card flashed and then signal a teammate? In that case I am doing something
Cagliostro
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The people that hustle casinos by cheating really don’t consider the right or wrong of the situation. It is a moot point because that is what they do - they cheat casinos - period. They know they are cheating/stealing but the biggest consideration is getting it on and not getting caught, not whether it is right or wrong. That is what they think about and plan at length to prevent. If fact, many cheats enjoy the exhilaration of cheating a casino. They are on the edge and the “high” they achieve is almost as good as the money they "steal."

Many refer to themselves and their cohorts, half jokingly, as “thieves” and not necessarily as “cheats.”

The concept of whether such an endeavor is right or wrong is usually considered and discussed by those that don’t cheat casinos, or don’t cheat in any game of chance for any serious money.

I have never heard a professional cheat discuss or even mention the right or wrong of the endeavor. It is totally irrelevant to him.

As an aside, square johns when exposed to a clever cheating ploy in books or in a motion pictures, while they may not condone it, often vicariously enjoy and revel in its daring and audacity. Even they usually don't dwell on the right or wrong of the ploy, but rather its "cheek" and daring.
tommy
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There is nothing wrong with kidding yourself that the casino's are tyrants, hypocrites and liars if you want but need of courage. We like to think of ourselves as rational, logical decision makers but in reality we are driven by our emotions. When going into battle the casino's know that God is on your side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0PjKJ9nHS4

:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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