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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Is cheating a casino wrong? (8 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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MRSharpe
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Thanks for the corrections NFS, but I was trying to discuss craps in general terms and not get too deep into the math. You are correct that free odds do not carry an edge, but explaining the entire game take a layout and at least one dealer to do it correctly so that people aren't confused. And, I didn't calculate any odds myself, I was simply quoting what I recall being told in dealers school 19 years ago. For example, they told us that the edge on the pass line was 2.3 and the average of the edge on props bets was 23. This was for the purpose of clarifying how a casino functions and makes it's money. On card counting as well, when I was dealing in Indiana you could be arrested for the practice. It may sound backward and the law may have been changed since then.
tommy, nice list, but that's all it is. My guess is that the minimal information in your wikipedia link has to do with cheating practices that may occur in unregulated casinos. For example, gaming commissions inspect roulette wheels to make sure they are fair. I did talk to an old card cheat turned magician who claimed that he once went into a Vegas casino years ago and was recognized. He went to play a hand pitched BJ game and the pit boss put in a mechanic who followed him from table to table tapping the dealer at each table out to get rid of him, but then that was a story.
In the long run I was trying to comment on the original post about ethics and not trying to discuss craps in depth or give a lesson on what is possible for a casino to do to rig games or for a player to do to take advantage. Cheating is cheating whether or not the house or a player is doing it. If you don't like how casinos work then don't enter one and buy in to a game. That's generally what I do.
Custom Props Designer and Fabricator as well as Performer from Indiana, USA
silverking
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MRSharpes post = "if it isn't blatantly wrong it's blatantly obvious".

In order to discuss ethics with any creditability, people generally post accurate facts to support their arguments.
Your facts definitely aren't accurate.
(And what's with the grade school diatribe on casino gambling?......have you read any other posts in this forum?)

Regardless, you've registered your personal opinion, so thanks.
NFS
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I understand, Sharpe. I just wanted the facts to be straight.

I've heard a few stories of counters being horribly mistreated by some of the Midwest casinos. Have you personally witnessed anyone being arrested only because of counting in IN? I understand the mindset of the casino management can be very cutthroat on those smaller properties, so while they may give an impression to their staff that counting is illegal, it certainly isn't and there's really nothing (legally) that can be done besides flat bet or back them off. It's not unheard of for management to be guilty of false imprisonment or to wrongfully arrest someone though, but they usually pay the price for that mistake later in court.
"A gambler without a system is as a ship without a compass."
MRSharpe
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I haven't dealt since 1997. By the time I got out I hadn't witnessed anyone getting hauled out for anything but being drunk and disorderly, certainly not cheating. It was my understanding that Aztar, the first boat in IN and the one I dealt on, had gotten the state law to read that counting was cheating. I heard about someone hauled off the boat for some kind of cheating on another shift, but I don't remember any details now. Also, in dealers school it was explained that counters weren't actually cheating, but taking what casinos consider an unfair advantage and that management actually liked to haul counters off the casino floor because it created a little excitement and discouraged other players from trying it. They also mentioned that it wasn't a necessarily easy thing to do and basic strategy was the best way to go when playing. I hat BJ by the way. Most boring game on the planet from my POV. I rather play craps or poker. Pai Gow looks like fun, but its harder to learn than craps. I would also play backgammon if they had it in the U.S.
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tommy
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You are playing in a poker game in a casino, the casino dealer is colluding with a player. In this case is it the casino that is cheating you?

Yes! Why? Why because the casino is responsible for the security and their staff that's why.

Look at that case in Oz the other day, where a player took them for $33 million and ask who is “them” he took it from, with the help of the casino staff and their security cameras.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
silverking
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"Creditability" - really Apple?
JasonEngland
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Silverking,

You just lost all creditability with me.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Garbo
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Depends on what method of "cheating" was going on...?

Posted: Mar 21, 2014 04:45 am For example - is card counting cheating? I see that as a skill...
Marlin1894
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Good grief.
tommy
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I see dealing cards ftom the botton of deck as more of skill than card counting.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
billmarq
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I normally do not play roulette; the odds are just way too much in favor of the house, but one day I gave it a go making minimum bets. I caught the "dealer" timing his throws to hit the 0 or 00 by looking out the corner of his eye and catching the green as it passed one of the diamonds. He was hitting them regularly or at least the numbers adjacent to them on the wheel. I waited until he let loose the ball and then I covered all the numbers near the 0 and 00. I won, of course, not a lot of money really, but enough to make him angry. I grabbed my chips and yelled out, "Thanks!" so the pit boss could hear and took off. No one hauled me off to the office.

Smile Smile Smile
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tommy
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Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Logan Five
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I was caught cheating at the Silver Legacy in Reno, NV. I was putting the work in the 10's i.e Martin Nash's Infinity card (cards). My bent 10's were all over the table. After a while of this, a pit boss took off his glasses and gave me " the look ", and a mean look it was too. They let me continue to play at the table, maybe because I was only betting $5-$10 a hand. I just did it to see if I could get away with it.

That was about 10 years ago. Smile
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Pop Haydn
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Doomo
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Remind me NEVER to do ANY business with a lot of the posters on this thread. You do not have to play... You know in advance the rules if you do not like them... Do not play. I have had numerous people say I was cheating them because I would NOT match the prices of the people who sell knock offs of my wallets. I have even had people get mad at me because I would not repair/replace those knock offs when they broke...

People get stupid ideas....

Tony
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silverking
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Quote:
On May 7, 2014, Doomo wrote:
Remind me NEVER to do ANY business with a lot of the posters on this thread.

Tony

You already have Tony - lots of business Smile
Oh, and I use the assorted wallets I purchased from you for exceptionally dastardly and nefarious purposes, removing milk and bread money from family men who should know better.
tommy
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People do get stupid ideas.... like buying a coin a wallet when it would be cheaper to lose the coins.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Mar 21, 2014, Marlin1894 wrote:
Good grief.


Well, if the regulars aren't regular any more, the irregulars become regular.

Kind of a Metamucil effect.
Dannydoyle
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The seats do not have glue on them, the doors are not locked and you are free to come and go as you like.

You can go find a Blackjack game with better rules, you can find a craps table that lets you do better "odds" bets and so forth. This is not "cheating" on the part of the casino by any stretch of the word. They will hand you a printed copy of all rules you may need confirmation on and you may leave at any time. It is a game proposition in which you freely enter into and play by the established rules.

As I have never been in a casino which card counting has rules against, and I have never seen a state law which prohibits such actions it seems to me that it is not cheating.

All that being said do what you like!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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They care not if you cheat so long as you lose.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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