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stoneunhinged
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I just find the whole question a bit silly, because the word "cheating" is by definition something you're not supposed to do. Is "cheating" on your wife good? What if she's a hoor? Is it OK then?

If you mean, is it wrong to steal from a casino?, then probably most of us would agree that it is. And if what you are really asking is whether breaking the rules of a casino is OK since the casino is designed to take your money, then you still probably would get the same answer.

Is cheating morally wrong, but not in casinos?

Strange thread, I think.
tommy
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A tooth for a tooth is our friends argument, I think. A theft for a theft. What could fairer than that?

Some marks are, fair game, as we say in in the trade, some are not.

According to God it all belongs to him anyway and while we are here we take our fair share but we have to leave it behind when we go.

The casino's are greedy and they have taken more than their fair share and God said, well that makes them, fair game, so take some back.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The Dowser
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Quote:
On 2013-11-05 11:02, tommy wrote:

The casino's are greedy and they have taken more than their fair share and God said, well that makes them, fair game, so take some back.


Are you really telling us that it is God's Word that we should take off the casino's?
Tony45
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To a thief, its earning, that's it. To make a dolar any way they can they earn it, theres no "Is it wrong or right ", its an earn, that's it.
To a civilian, its stealing. Whats all the debate about ? Classify yourself what you are and I gave you the answer, real simple.
Expertmagician
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I know I may be picky.....

But, You also may want to consider that it is a Federal offense.

Posted: Nov 6, 2013 11:46 am Note: The other issue is how you define "cheating".

Years ago casinos wanted to define counting cards as cheating....yet it is legal !

So, I guess cheating is in the eyes of the beholder or law...

Funny how the same games of chance played in private are illegal...but, if you paid for a license...then it becomes legal.
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tommy
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The present pope, Benedict XVI, and his Vatican system teach that private property is not personal as such, but belongs to all people. His predecessor, Pope John Paul II stated, “Private property, in fact, is under a ‘social mortgage,’ which means that it has an intrinsically social function, based upon and justified precisely by the principle of the universal destination of goods.” The principle of “the universal destination of goods” is clearly observed in what the present pope endorses in the second part of his encyclical entitled “God is Love.” Benedict wholly sanctions the principle of the universal ownership of all goods embalmed in the writings of popes Leo XIII, Pius XI, John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II.3 The phrase, “all goods,” includes not only the goods found in nature but manufactured goods as well. As John Paul II stated, “The vast majority of people can have access to those goods which are intended for common use: both the goods of nature and manufactured goods.”4 Another Vatican Council II document upholds the same principle of the “universal ownership of all goods” and emphatically teaches, “If one is in extreme necessity, he has the right to procure for himself what he needs out of the riches of others.”

In God We Trust
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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The Dowser
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Fascinating...

that would make an interesting defence in court. "The Pope said I could do it".
tommy
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Smile

Canadian criminal law allows for a common law defence of necessity.

The leading case for the defence is Perka v. The Queen [1984] 2 S.C.R. 232 in which Dickson J. described the rationale for the defence as a recognition that:

a liberal and humane criminal law cannot hold people to the strict obedience of laws in emergency situations where normal human instincts, whether of self-preservation or of altruism, overwhelmingly impel disobedience.

Etcetera


Necessity is not often argued as a defence but is it's often argued in mitigation. That is to say one can beg for a lower sentence: Please, please sir I will never do it again, I was broke and desperate and starving and grand baby needs new shoes.

Would you send a sweet little old grandmother, like Gag, to jail? Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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brehaut
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Quote:
On 2013-11-05 06:42, stoneunhinged wrote:
I just find the whole question a bit silly, because the word "cheating" is by definition something you're not supposed to do. Is "cheating" on your wife good? What if she's a hoor? Is it OK then?

If you mean, is it wrong to steal from a casino?, then probably most of us would agree that it is. And if what you are really asking is whether breaking the rules of a casino is OK since the casino is designed to take your money, then you still probably would get the same answer.

Is cheating morally wrong, but not in casinos?

Strange thread, I think.


The fact that you think it is a silly question and a strange thread tells me much about you
The Dowser
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Quote:
On 2013-11-07 06:19, tommy wrote:
:)
Necessity is not often argued as a defence but is it's often argued in mitigation. That is to say one can beg for a lower sentence: Please, please sir I will never do it again, I was broke and desperate and starving and grand baby needs new shoes.


I wonder if that's why so many dice sliders shout their defence prior to every roll... "baby needs a new pair of shoes"
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2013-11-07 17:25, brehaut wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-05 06:42, stoneunhinged wrote:
I just find the whole question a bit silly, because the word "cheating" is by definition something you're not supposed to do. Is "cheating" on your wife good? What if she's a hoor? Is it OK then?

If you mean, is it wrong to steal from a casino?, then probably most of us would agree that it is. And if what you are really asking is whether breaking the rules of a casino is OK since the casino is designed to take your money, then you still probably would get the same answer.

Is cheating morally wrong, but not in casinos?

Strange thread, I think.


The fact that you think it is a silly question and a strange thread tells me much about you


Well, I wouldn't want to be a stranger, pardner!
tommy
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Baby needs new shoes, yes it is a common phrase among the fraternity I have noticed. It is used to express something that is done unwillingly but with an acceptance that it can't be avoided I think. One has to do whatever is necessary. Necessity is the very stuff which compels the action of the professional. If one can win and win as much without manipulation then there is no call for manipulation. It 's a necessity for the professional, by definition, to make a profit. For the professional the moral question is answered thus by the necessity defence. There is no necessity for the professionals owners of casino's to use manipulation as they make a profit from their edge. If they did not have that edge, well then they would have to do whatever is necessary or quit. Baby needs new shoes, car needs new tyres, such things cost money. And by the way - Tyres are very good little business - I think a gambler needs a little straight business to keep him going. Most of players I know have a small business anyway.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
KellyCurtis
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My day job is a "PIT BOSS" . If I know you are counting cards, on your own…more power to ya. If you are with a team…you will be backed off. Counting cards is not illegal. It's part of the game.
BUT!!! what you are asking if it's ok to steal from a business.
remember this too…without the house edge, you would not be able to gamble with security and luxury.
try to steal from a back alley dice game…just saying
"True success and satisfaction go only to those who really comprhend the underlying principles of why a trick succeeds or fails."-Greer Marechal
tommy
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But we would have more money.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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Principles are important--like ballast. You always want to have something left to toss overboard at the last minute...
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Oct 31, 2013, brehaut wrote:
Then let me ask this---is it wrong that they play games that are basically rigged?


They don't.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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They do sometimes.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
MRSharpe
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The games in a casino aren't rigged as in scams, like a three card monte game. Casinos make the rules for the games so that pay out work in their favor. For example, on a craps game none of the winning pay outs pay exactly what the odds of rolling that number actually are. Casinos make their money with the odds skewed in their favor and that is called the edge. That is they make a certain percentage of every hundred dollars wagered no matter who wins or loses. Some of the pay outs are skewed more than others. The edge on the craps pass line is about 2.3 meaning for every $100 wagered on the pass line the casino will win $2.30. For proposition bets the average edge is $23! Now, nobody is holding a gun to your head to get you to play any casino games. You can go in drink a little and just watch the action if you want. But most people find it entertaining and exciting to play, risk some money in the hopes that they will win, and get a little excitement. If you look at it as the same kind of thrill that might be obtained in a theme park that's the right attitude. And, you won't win anything in a theme park.
The other aspect of this thread is cheating. There are a lot of kinds of cheating.  Card counting, capping, past posting, and more blatant forms of cheating exist. When you go into the casino with plans to cheat in any way you are being dishonest. You're saying, "I want to play by your rules and try to win some money off you." But you have gone in with the desire to cheat. The casino ha stated the rules clearly and you have lied by going in there with the intention of cheating. So, they aren't being dishonest, you are at that point.
You can also play some games in casinos where you have no reason to feel cheated. You can bet on sports in Vegas, and soon in New jersey from what I hear. You can play poker, keno, solitaire, backgammon in Europe, etc. To play those games the casino only provides the means to play legally and they charge you a fee for using their facilities. If you don't want to feel cheated, but still want to play in a casino then choose one of those games.
The est reason to not cheat is that it is illegal and you can get caught. Most casino security is pretty good, so it's easy to get caught. The used to break your knuckles with a ball pein hammer, but that probably doesn't happen anymore.
Custom Props Designer and Fabricator as well as Performer from Indiana, USA
NFS
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Just a few corrections...

Quote:
On Mar 14, 2014, MRSharpe wrote:
on a craps game none of the winning pay outs pay exactly what the odds of rolling that number actually are.

Actually, the pass line odds bet pay out exactly the odds of the number being rolled. A 0% house edge. Granted you need to make a pass line bet to place an odds bet, but with many stores offering 100x odds or greater the total house edge on both bets combined is essentially reduced to zero.

Quote:
On Mar 14, 2014, MRSharpe wrote:
The edge on the craps pass line is about 2.3 meaning for every $100 wagered on the pass line the casino will win $2.30.

It's 1.41%, not 2.3%.

Quote:
On Mar 14, 2014, MRSharpe wrote:
For proposition bets the average edge is $23!

The single worst prop bet (Any 7) has a house edge of 16.67%, so I'm not sure how you figure an average of them could reach 23%.

Quote:
On Mar 14, 2014, MRSharpe wrote:
There are a lot of kinds of cheating.  Card counting, capping, past posting, and more blatant forms of cheating exist.

Card counting is most definitely not considered cheating. This is not debatable. It has been established by law.
"A gambler without a system is as a ship without a compass."
tommy
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Methods of cheating by casinos


Using a rigged roulette wheel.
False deals: A dealer may be able to deal the second card from the top (used in conjunction with marked cards), or the ability to deal the bottom card of the deck (used in conjunction with placing desirable cards at the bottom of the deck.)
False shuffles and cuts: A dealer may seem to mix or cut the cards, while retaining certain cards or the whole deck in a desired order.
Using a deck of cards with non-standard composition.
Using a cold deck.
Short paying, not paying, confiscating winning bets or refusing to pay jackpots.
Using loaded dice.
Using rulesets not sanctioned by a gambling control authority.
Using slot machines which pay lower than the statutory minimum.
Directing vexatious claims of cheating against a winning player in order to prevent them encashing their chips.
False advertising by not paying advertised promotions
Mail fraud or sending a mail offer but not honoring the offer once the customer is at the casino, also called bait and switch
Rigged video poker machines, such as the Vegas "American Coin Scandal"
Rigged drawings, such as at The Venetian, Las Vegas
Corrupt regulators, such as Ronald Dale Harris
Taking back casino comps previously won by customers
Mechanic's grip, dealing seconds, etc.
MindPlay, or using a computer to gain an edge, which is illegal in most jurisdictions
Distracting the customers so that they make mistakes, through excessive noise, bright lights, escorts, alcohol and drugs, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_casinos
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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