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armagic New user 79 Posts |
I was thinking, lets say for example you have a card selected, and placed fairly into the center of the deck. Wouldn't the act of shuffling weaken the effect when the chosen card is revealed? Why else would you shuffle the cards, if it was in fact placed fairly in the center, or some random spot in the deck?? I am just brainstorming, I mean, I know there are times when shuffling is appropriate, and even strengthens the effect, but other times, it seems like it would be psychologically weakening to an effect.
Any input would be appreciated. Just a though, Andrew |
Mr. Ed Veteran user California 337 Posts |
I think it depends on the effect. Sam the bellhop would be a lot less impressive without shuffles. An ambitious card routine I think might be lessened with shuffles.
For your garden variety pick a card, return a card, reveal a card, placeing of the card in the deck leaves the Magi with a round about idea of where the card is.(In the mind of the spectators) The addition of the shuffle implies that the card is hopelessly lost.
He who laughs, lasts.
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Garrett Nelson Special user 644 Posts |
I have been approached several times after a performance by people who know a little about card magic and say, "That was great! I am just amazed that you can keep track of the card while you are doing all that shuffling and cutting!"
And if you don't shuffle or cut, how are you going to get it to where you need it. A pass is great, but in limited situations. A side steal 20 times? There are others, but practicality comes into play. As stated, for something like an ambitious card it isn't a good idea to shuffle. But if you have to control the card in some way, why not do it so it looks like you are mixing the cards up even more? In their minds the shuffling will only make it harder to find, as it is being placed in a fairly random spot (instead of just the spot where it was replaced). And many people know what holding a break is...and that is impossible to do that when you shuffle. Just my feeling on the matter. |
Reian Regular user Hawaii 117 Posts |
Quote:
And if you don't shuffle or cut, how are you going to get it to where you need it. Andrus Card Control Reian |
GothicBen Veteran user England 353 Posts |
Marlo's convincing control?
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Greenshock Regular user Vancouver, Canada 149 Posts |
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On 2002-05-31 01:21, GarrettDN wrote: You are assuming far too much. Almost no one outside the realm of card magicians knows what a break is. Shuffling not only clutters up the effect with wasted movements and time, it's just not necessary from the spectators standpoint. If you can't put the selection back convincingly enough so the spectators honestly believe it's hopelessly lost in the deck, you probably shouldn't be performing card magic. |
Mr. Ed Veteran user California 337 Posts |
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On 2002-05-31 04:46, Greenshock wrote: Well now upon reading this I decided to conduct an experiment. I went and performed a trick for ten seperate tenants in the building where I work. It was a key card effect called lazy Magician by John Fedko. The selected card was returned to the deck and the deck was squared in my hands. 6 out of ten times the spectator looked to make sure that no breaks were being held. They may not have understood what "a Break" is, but they knew enough to make sure that the card was returned and was not readily identifiable. I feel that this demonstrates that people do know what a break is, even if they are not aware of the definition of the word, Break. "Shuffling not only clutters up the effect with wasted movements and time, it's just not necessary from the spectators standpoint." This can be true. If the purpose of the shuffling is explained in the presentation of the effect, then it is false. I'm not sure you can paint every effect with the same brush. And I am sure you meant no offense but I think your last comment was a bit strong.
He who laughs, lasts.
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armagic New user 79 Posts |
I also feel that there has to be a reason for shuffling, or else it clutters an effect. In the spectators minds, if a card was "lost", and the magi doesnt know where it is, than why would any shuffling be necessary, unless it was done by the spec.
Secondly, there are many numerous ways to reach a card without shuffling, many of these have been mentioned. |
Garrett Nelson Special user 644 Posts |
I have had the same experience as Mr. Ed (no relation to the horse, I presume)
I have even had someone call me on holding a break when I wasn't holding one. The andrus card control, Marlo's convincing control, et al. go under the catagory of "There are others, but practicality comes into play". My point is that most controls aren't invisible; you do something. I suppose I could do a Kelly placement for every effect, but like I said, it just isn't practical. I think having the spectator replace the card is important for many effects, and that right there rules out a lot of things. So yes, I agree there are many controls out there that don't involve shuffling or cutting. I use them as well. But that sure doesn't mean I am going to stop shuffling and cutting for some things. And used corectly, I don't feel it weakens the effect. But hey, that is just me. Different people, different strokes! |
Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
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On 2002-05-31 12:51, armagic wrote: If a magician puts a card into the center of the deck then it is far from "lost". Lost implies that no one knows where the card is -- but the audience does know. It is in the center of the deck. However, if the cards are shuffled then the card could be anywhere in the deck. Therefore the location of the card is no longer "somewhere in the center of the deck" but "somewhere in the deck". Which is stronger from a spectator's point of view? I will often shuffle, but I never make a big deal out of it (eg: "Look! I'm mixing the cards!) I will do it almost absentmindedly as I talk to the audience. Far from cluttering an effect, I feel that shuffling can (and usually does) reinforce the "lostness" of the card. As has been mentioned, in effects such as the Ambitious Card, when it is important that the card is in the center, shuffling certainly weakens the effect. But whatever works for you is fine by me. It all depends on the circumstance and performer. Step :coolspot:
Hello.
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
re;I also feel that there has to be a reason for shuffling, or else it clutters an effect. In the spectators minds, if a card was "lost", and the magi doesnt know where it is, than why would any shuffling be necessary, unless it was done by the spec.
Yes, there has to be a reason for a deck being shuffled. You hit the nail on the head with that last line. Let's take that very first example/statement; " you have a card selected, and placed fairly into the center of the deck. Wouldn't the act of shuffling weaken the effect when the chosen card is revealed? If the card was placed in the centre of the deck they may very well think you saw exactly where it was placed so know roughly where it is. It is not THAT lost. Maybe you would be skilled enough to cut the cards exactly at that spot or close to it. A shuffle could be justified with a comment like, "We know your card is roughly near the middle, but if we give the deck a quick shuffle it could now be anywhere!" Or "I know it is near the middle so you'd better give the deck a shuffle so no-one has a clue where it is!" Actually looking back a post I've just seen Stephen's comments which pretty much makes mine redundant. The weakest thing you can do is simply cut the deck. It should be all or nothing But it does depend on the effect. Paul. |
armagic New user 79 Posts |
Great points Stephen and Paul,
I guess I missed some things when I thought of this. I guess it always just comes back to motivation. And like any tool in magic, shuffling and cutting is a double edged sword. Great discussion guys, thanks! Andrew |
Martin_H Regular user Austria 164 Posts |
Paul,
Great comment! An effect has to be as clear as possible with less distraction as possible. If the shuffle strengthens the picture, that the card is lost it´s ok. (and it should be a convincing shuffle!!!) It always depends on what you want the audience thinks and how you are able to direct their thinking and expectations... Martin
life is real magic
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