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R.S.
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On 2013-11-28 14:04, Dannydoyle wrote:
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chiro......overview

Web md seems to think it has at least some validity. They do NOT call it quackery.

So I guess your arrogant pronouncement would be a blanket statement about such things.

Hey I don't particularly care either way. It is just that those who espouse such absolute truths for everyone are just often blind. You in this case are having trouble seeing.


From your own link:

"Avoid someone who:
Uses X-rays as a standard diagnostic test, especially full-body X-rays or X-rays of children. These give unnecessarily high levels of radiation.
Bases his or her practice on the unproven theory that subluxation (partial dislocation of two joint surfaces) causes many diseases.
Uses manipulation to treat such problems as lung and ear infections, skin conditions, eye problems, and learning disabilities.
Promotes regular manipulation as a way to prevent illness or joint problems.


Chiropractors are not your only choice for providing spinal manual treatment. Other practitioners who can do this include:
Osteopaths.
Physical therapists.
Physiatrists."


It is a fact that chiropractic was founded and based on a) an assertion that "innate intelligence" flows through the body, and b) a disruption of that flow, or "subluxations" in the spine is the cause of disease. Neither of those assertions has ever been substantiated. Moreover, show 10 chiropractors an x-ray and ask each where (or if) there are subluxations and you'll likely get 10 different answers. That's not science, that's quackery. From http://quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiro.html:

"X-rays and Medicare

Most chiropractors claim that x-rays help them locate the "subluxations" that D.D. Palmer envisioned. But they do not agree among themselves about what subluxations are. Some chiropractors believe they are displaced bones that can be seen on x-rays and can be put back in place by spinal adjustments. Others define subluxations vaguely or say they do not necessarily show on x-rays. But what chiropractors contend about x-rays also depends upon who asks and how the question is posed.

Chiropractic coverage under Medicare, which began in 1973, was limited to manual manipulation of the spine for the treatment of "subluxations demonstrated by x-rays to exist." To enable payment, federal officials accepted an elaborate chiropractic "definition" of subluxations for which payment could be made. During the mid-1980s, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services' Office of the Inspector General (OIG) surveyed 145 chiropractors by telephone about their billing practices. Eighty-four percent said that some subluxations do not show on x-rays. Nearly half responded that when billing Medicare, they "could always find something" (by x-ray or physical examination) to justify the diagnosis, or they actually tailored the diagnosis to obtain reimbursement. The OIG's report noted that chiropractic manipulation was the ninth most frequently billed procedure under Medicare during 1983.

In 1997, after many years of intense lobbying, chiropractors persuaded Congress to remove the mandatory x-ray provision. The Balanced Budget Act of 1997 eliminates the requirement as of January 1, 2000, and requires the Secretary of Health and Human Services to develop and implement utilization guidelines for chiropractic coverage when a subluxation has not been demonstrated by X-ray. The new policy is expected to increase the number of claims Medicare pays for chiropractic services."


Now, some chiropractors do employ traditional treatments along with standard physical therapy. Those would be the most beneficial aspects of the treatment. A large number of other chiropractors also embrace other quack medicines like, homeopathy, acupuncture, reflexology, etc. That does not reflect well on what is already a profession based on unproven assertions. So the bottom line is that until someone can show that this "innate intelligence" exists, and demonstrate that "subluxations" exist and are disrupting the flow of "innate intelligence" which in turn causes disease, chiropractic remains an unproven and perhaps dangerous practice. Here is an article regarding the danger of neck manipulations and strokes:

http://quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedT......oke.html

"The Bottom Line

As far as I know, most chiropractors do not warn their patients that neck manipulation entails risks. I believe they should and that the profession should implement a reporting system that would enable this matter to be appropriately studied. This might be achieved if (a) state licensing boards required that all such cases be reported, and (b) chiropractic malpractice insurance companies, which now keep their data secret, were required to disclose them to an independently operated database that has input from both medical doctors and chiropractors.

Meanwhile, since stroke is such a devastating event, every effort should be made to stop chiropractors from manipulating necks without adequate reason. Many believe that all types of headaches might be amenable to spinal manipulation even though no scientific evidence supports such a belief. Many include neck manipulation as part of "preventative maintenance" that involves unnecessarily treating people who have no symptoms. Even worse, some chiropractors—often referred to as "upper cervical specialists"—claim that most human ailments are the result of misalignment of the topmost vertebrae (atlas and axis) and that every patient they see needs neck manipulation. Neck manipulation of children under age 12 should be outlawed."


And once again, I ask why aren't chiropractors routinely curing deafness if chiropractic works? Any chiropractic supporters care to answer that?


Stay healthy,
Ron
:)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On 2013-11-28 19:07, TomBoleware wrote:
Evidence means nothing if it's not believable. And the problem with age old fact is,
we like to adjust it to fit our own needs.

Oh well, where we came from is not as important as where we going, and even there,
we will probably still be wondering 'how'd I end up here.' Smile

Tom


"Believability" is not really the point. Replicable and corroborating evidence is the key. For example, the early evidence surrounding quantum weirdness was "unbelievable". How could a single photon be in 2 places at once? But the replicability of the experiments coupled with more evidence through the years solidified quantum theory. Even now, the strange world of the atom sounds unbelievable, but we know that nature obeys it's own rules at the atomic level. And those rules are now well understood. Nature will do what she does whether we choose to believe it or not. We should not ignore evidence simply because it sounds outlandish or makes us uneasy. I'm sure that at one time lots of people resisted the idea that the Sun, and not the Earth, was at the center of the solar system. The thought that we were not "special" made many people uneasy. However, the evidence proved otherwise.

As far as we we're going, right now I'm headed to the fridge for round 2 (or is it round 3?). Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
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Talk about using the facts in your favor. LOL

Ron, thousands of Americans died from wrong medication or misdiagnosis in American hospitals…....LAST WEEK.
Medical doctors kill people every day. Chiropractors kill very few.

No they are not medical doctors, but those I know who go to the chiropractors seem to be satisfied with the results.

Tom
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Dannydoyle
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Ron you said all, the link says most. That is your arrogant pronouncement.

Spin it how you like. As Tom points out LOTS of MD holders are worse than anything you show with chiropractors. But hey you have your truth.
Danny Doyle
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R.S.
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On 2013-11-28 20:24, TomBoleware wrote:
Talk about using the facts in your favor. LOL

Ron, thousands of Americans died from wrong medication or misdiagnosis in American hospitals…....LAST WEEK.
Medical doctors kill people every day. Chiropractors kill very few.

No they are not medical doctors, but those I know who go to the chiropractors seem to be satisfied with the results.

Tom



Tom,

Glad you agree I am using facts. And they simply are what they are. I don't consider them to be "my favor."

No question that there always have been (and will be) some deaths attributed to wrong medications or misdiagnosis by doctors in hospitals. It's inevitable given the tens of millions of doctor/patient interactions that occur each year. But it's hyperbolic and disingenuous to say that "Medical doctors kill people every day", as if that's their mission.

Your chances of injury or death (or simply no benefit at all) increase dramatically when you embrace pseudoscientific medical practices. Strokes are a real concern with chiropractic. I encourage you to read the links I have posted, as they present some good information.

I'm glad those you know are satisfied with their chiropractic results. Did they have spinal adjustments or some other physical therapy? Or a simple massage? Anyway, please don't take my word for it. Do the research yourself before you choose to be treated by a chiropractor. If you armed with all the facts, then you will feel confident in your decision. I wish you the best. Smile

Ron

PS - Nobody wants to comment on the chiropractic cure for deafness, huh?
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On 2013-11-28 20:34, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ron you said all, the link says most. That is your arrogant pronouncement.

Spin it how you like. As Tom points out LOTS of MD holders are worse than anything you show with chiropractors. But hey you have your truth.



Danny, chiropractic is based on the unproven assertions I have already described. I contend that any chiropractor who calls himself a chiropractor yet does not embrace this very fundamental philosophy of chiropractic is in fact not a "chiropractor." He is something else.

Now let me ask you this... do YOU believe that disease is caused by a disruption in the flow of "innate intelligence"? And that realignments of the spinal vertebrae can "restore" the flow and cure disease? Do you believe that deafness can be cured by a spinal manipulation (even though there are NO connections whatsoever between auditory function and the spine)?


Ron
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The world is a business, Mr. Beale; it has been since man crawled out of the slime.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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R.S.
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On 2013-11-28 20:24, TomBoleware wrote:
Talk about using the facts in your favor. LOL

Ron, thousands of Americans died from wrong medication or misdiagnosis in American hospitals…....LAST WEEK.
Medical doctors kill people every day. Chiropractors kill very few.

No they are not medical doctors, but those I know who go to the chiropractors seem to be satisfied with the results.

Tom



Tom,

One other thing... pointing out negatives in traditional medicine in no way strengthens the case for any alternative medicine. Even if traditional medicine had an absolutely dismal track record (fortunately, it does not). The only way to strengthen the case for chiropractic is to show the empirical evidence that supports it's core claims. And unfortunately, there simply is none (anecdotal evidence notwithstanding).


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Ron, for the record, I've never been to a chiropractor, so I'm not endorsing them.
I only know what a few friends have told me.
They claim the chiropractor helped them. That's the only evidence I have.
Never heard anything bad, so I have no reason not to believe them.
Honestly I've never heard of one claiming to cure deafness.

Tom
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By fact, do you mean something that's been so often verified that one can cite it with arbitrary confidence?

Last I heard "science" was about proposing models of what is and then checking to see if what the model suggests as real, which disagrees with what other models suggest as real, is closer to what one finds when one looks at what is real.

The presence of salt and DNA/RNA in so much of what we call life is consistent with the model that has DNA/RNA replication in cells as something that's been going on for a long time.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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So you break it down to false choices and obvious charlatans and paint every chiropractor with that same brush? Seriously this is your research?

Funny Tom and I both are not claiming that chiropractors are one thing or another. Just that you are making pretty sweeping statements you have not backed up except to make even more of them and to point out what is wrong with them.

Do chiropractors have to be licensed by the state?
Danny Doyle
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R.S.
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On 2013-11-28 22:13, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron, for the record, I've never been to a chiropractor, so I'm not endorsing them.
I only know what a few friends have told me.
They claim the chiropractor helped them. That's the only evidence I have.
Never heard anything bad, so I have no reason not to believe them.
Honestly I've never heard of one claiming to cure deafness.

Tom


Tom,

That sort of logic leaves something to be desired, I think. Would you say the same thing about, say, witch doctors? Just because you may not have heard anything bad, does that mean you would have no reason not to believe them? Instead, shouldn't their core claims stand up to scrutiny? Doesn't that make more sense? It does in my opinion anyway.

As I have already pointed out, chiropractic formally began when the founder, Daniel David Palmer, claimed to have cured a man's deafness by a simple manipulation of the man's spine. Which begs the question of why we aren't hearing of thousands/millions of deaf people all over the world being cured by chiropractors in the past 118 years.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On 2013-11-28 23:28, Dannydoyle wrote:
So you break it down to false choices and obvious charlatans and paint every chiropractor with that same brush? Seriously this is your research?

Funny Tom and I both are not claiming that chiropractors are one thing or another. Just that you are making pretty sweeping statements you have not backed up except to make even more of them and to point out what is wrong with them.

Do chiropractors have to be licensed by the state?


What "false choices"? And I have already stated that some chiropractors may mix in traditional medical treatments, and that there may be a benefit derived from those treatments. But that in no way validates the core claims of traditional chiropractic. And as far as sweeping statements, you're the one who claimed that "LOTS of MDs are worse than" chiropractors. Can't get any more sweeping than that. But, as I said before, do your own research on the history of chiropractic. Let me know what I have stated about the theory or history of chiropractic is untrue. Compare the methods of evidence-based medicine to the methods of alternative medicine and decide for yourself which approach yields more beneficial results. Again, a great resource is the book, "Trick Or Treatment: The Undeniable Facts About Alternative Medicine." Also, check out http://quackwatch.org/

It is irrelevant to the core claims of chiropractic whether or not they need to be licensed by the state, so I'm not sure what your point is on that.

I also see that you ignored my questions to you.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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Does the state license witch doctors?

You say that all practices of the chiropractor are hokum yet never answer if some have been adopted by modern medicine. If so then obviously modern medicine must be hokum according to your arrogant pronouncements.
Danny Doyle
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Yes, the practice of chiropractic is licensed and regulated in all 50 States.
Chiropractic care is even covered under many health insurance plans, including major medical plans, workers’ compensation,etc.

But still and like with everything else, people should decide for themselves by simply asking around.
Ask a friend, a co-worker, your doctor, or go talk to one in person. Don't decide based on what you can
find on the internet or what some like to call scientific fact that happened a hundred years ago.
You can find bad in anything. Sometimes you have to use your own judgment, a little common sense.

What I'm saying is, if you really want to make medical decisions based solely on research and facts alone.
Check out 'facts' about medical doctors and how many mistakes they make. See for yourself how many die because
of mistakes made in the hospitals. Now does this mean you shouldn't trust or go to a doctor, no of course not,
it only means that you shouldn't be afraid to trust your own common sense. You shouldn't be afraid of asking
a few questions and/or getting a second opinion.

Tom
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FWIW, I know two people who attended the Palmer College of Chiropractic. (I've been told that is one of the best places to study.)

From what I've learned / seen from this, I would hesitate (and ultimately probably refuse) to have a chiropractor do anything to me.
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R.S.
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On 2013-11-29 09:51, Dannydoyle wrote:
Does the state license witch doctors?

You say that all practices of the chiropractor are hokum yet never answer if some have been adopted by modern medicine. If so then obviously modern medicine must be hokum according to your arrogant pronouncements.




Here is my state's (CT) Chiropractic Licensure Requirements...

*****Completed at least sixty (60) semester hours of pre-professional college education;

Graduated from a college of chiropractic accredited, at the time of graduation, by the Council on Chiropractic Education;

Completed Parts I, II, III, IV and the Physiotherapy examinations administered by the National Board of Chiropractic Examiners.


Documentation Requirements

Applicants should arrange for submission of the following documents directly from the source:

A completed, notarized application and fee of $565.00 in the form of a bank check or money order payable to Treasurer, State of Connecticut;

An official transcript verifying 60 semester hours of pre-professional college education, sent directly from each institution where studies were undertaken;

An official transcript of chiropractic education, verifying the award of the Doctor of Chiropractic degree;

An official report of National Board scores, sent directly to this office from the examination service; and

Verification of all professional licenses ever held, current or expired, sent directly from the responsible state agency to this office. Please contact the state board first as a fee may be required.*****


That's it. So basically, if you went to a Chiropractic school and got passing grades, pay your fee, and submit the requested documents, you can be licensed. The state is not in the business of scientifically validating the core claims of chiropractic. My state, and others, also grant licenses in homeopathy! And we know how ludicrous homeopathy is! The bottom line is that whether something is licensed or not, we still need to be skeptical about what claims are being made. Naturally, that holds true for ALL medicine - traditional or otherwise.

Unfortunately, your strawman argument won't stand. As I have explained before, to the extent that some people derive benefits from a chiropractic visit, chances are that the chiropractor employed traditional, evidence-based medicine. Nobody has ever demonstrated the existence of "innate intelligence" flowing through the body (the spine) and resulting in disease if blocked or impinged. Even the chiropractors themselves do not agree on what may or may not be a subluxation. And yes, I am a big advocate of modern evidence-based medicine. Who wouldn't be? Are you?

Still avoiding my questions, I see. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On 2013-11-29 09:53, TomBoleware wrote:
But still and like with everything else, people should decide for themselves by simply asking around.
Ask a friend, a co-worker, your doctor, or go talk to one in person. Don't decide based on what you can
find on the internet or what some like to call scientific fact that happened a hundred years ago.
You can find bad in anything. Sometimes you have to use your own judgment, a little common sense.

What I'm saying is, if you really want to make medical decisions based solely on research and facts alone.
Check out 'facts' about medical doctors and how many mistakes they make. See for yourself how many die because
of mistakes made in the hospitals. Now does this mean you shouldn't trust or go to a doctor, no of course not,
it only means that you shouldn't be afraid to trust your own common sense. You shouldn't be afraid of asking
a few questions and/or getting a second opinion.

Tom


Tom, simply "asking around" is not good enough. How many people know what the (unproven) assertions of chiropractic are? I doubt very few. How many people know that D.D. Palmer founded chiropractic in 1895 when he claims he cured a man's deafness by manipulating his spine? How many people know what "subluxations" are supposed to be? How many people know that many chiropractors also employ dubious treatments like acupuncture, homeopathy, and reflexolgy? How many people know the tap dance that chiropractic did in order to get Medicare to cover subluxations on x-rays (see my earlier post)?

I knew practically nothing about chiropractic 7 years ago when I started my current job. But my job entails working with chiropractors almost on a daily basis. We are a medical claims clearinghouse and we work with doctors (all kinds) to establish secure electronic transmissions of medical claims to insurance companies. I have worked one-on-one (over the phone) with literally hundreds of chiropractors all over the country in my time at this company. We don't talk medicine of course, but I do spend hours/days/weeks with them until their practice management billing system is setup. Dealing with so many chiropractors piqued my curiosity and what I have learned up to now is the result of my investigations. I had no opinion either way initially. I just wanted to learn what they were about. Lots of times, if the chiropractor I'm dealing with has a website, I'll check it out and invariably I'll see some reference to the philosophy of D.D. Palmer, as well as references to other, questionable alternative medicines. Now, the people I deal with are by and large super nice and pleasant to work with. I am not knocking the individuals. But when you investigate chiropractic skeptically (as we should investigate anything), you'll see lots of red flags.

Again, attacking something else doesn't strengthen your own position. You need to show that what you advocate is sound. If traditional medicine had a 99% failure rate, that still wouldn't mean that chiropractic is valid! Sheesh.

:)
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
tommy
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I believe that oceans came from the humans.

Humans are full of water and when they die that water must go somewhere.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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John F. Kennedy is known to have suffered from back problems. He did not seek or receive treatment from chiropractors. But he did get some relief by swimming in the ocean.

Does that bring us back on topic?

:eek:
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