Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.

What I don't seem to understand, ( forgive my ignorance) is if the disclaimer doesn't work, or isn't completely effective in easing everyone's mind about what you do is just tricks , what purpose is the disclaimer serving? I am only asking questions to better understand the reasoning of using disclaimers. My apologies for asking, but I was always taught if I don't ask questions how am I to ever learn or understand. Thank you for being kind enough to at least try.

There are some people in the church that will have concerns (about magic shows, magicians, illusions, etc.), and voice them privately to the pastor. The concerned person may or may not approach the performer directly, before the show. In fact, they might not go to the show at all. Or they might intend to go to the show and cause a fuss. The pastor may or may not tell you about people voicing concerns.

But there might be some in the audience who have mild concerns, and still attend. The disclaimer at the beginning is there for those who have mild concerns.

I recall one show where an audience member approached me after the show and told me that he had serious concerns before seeing my show, but he was delighted to discover he was wrong, and after seeing my show he thought that the show was a wonderful evangelism tool.

That disclaimer might have helped to keep him at the show, so he could make up his opinion by seeing the show, instead of having an opinion before-hand because of words he didn't like.

In this case, the person with the serious concerns came to see the show, but that doesn't always happen.

- Donald

P.S. I have several stories about this that I can share privately with you Daniel.

Thanks Donald. I will message you on FB.

To answer the op Mike I feel that it might show you in a bad light. The reason of a seance is to contact the spirits of the dead, as I understand it. In that I would not do it in any show as some day you may be witnessing to those same people. I say this remembering that Andre' Cole did a, "Walking on Water" illusion and I am sure some people took offence at that. I would say just pray about it and let Jesus guide you in that area. All of our opinions are just that, "opinions". Seek Gods counsel and wait for His answer.

Steven

As Christians, it is important to realize the impact of our behavior on new and non-Christians. I'm pretty liberal. All is not cut & dry, black & white. I have a pretty open mind. However, I have had some REAL experiences that really opened my eyes! One was a Ouija Board. Long story. Know this: I will never, EVER touch another Ouija! Period.

I have performed the effect, "Luna". I did it at my sister's in Boston a year or so ago. Big mistake. I wasn't invited for Thanksgiving this year. My sister from California (a STAUNCH Catholic) was bothered, and her husband thinks I'm possessed! LOL! She lectured me on Satanic behavior, seances, ghosts, etc. She believed my performance was REAL! I tried to tell her it was an act, but no. Nothing I could say would change her mind.

It's infuriating. This is why I believe religion SUCKS! People get all hung up over things that don't matter...preaching this and that, but knowing NOTHING! Treating each other like crap, gossiping, judging and just doing exactly the OPPOSITE of what Jesus spent SO much time and effort to show us! Forgive me, not all are like that. But, enough to make me go, "STOP!!!" Enough!!!

A seance? Me? No. Never. Not in church or anywhere else. Not a good idea. Not for religious reasons either. Folks, there are "doors" you do NOT open. We do not know enough to be responsible for this. There are things in THIS world that are BEYOND our understanding. Things that can physically HURT you! From OUTSIDE this realm. We really have no idea. It is best we DON'T, either!

A Seance Illusion show can be very entertaining, no question. However, it CAN have very unexpected results. There is a reason The Old Testament warned us. They knew! It is imperative to keep that in mind, if you do a Spirit Act.

Doug

Entertainment is a grey area but scriptures can still teach us what kind of a person we should be. Using the excuse, " It's just entertainment" is no excuse, and even if you use a disclaimer doesn't make it exceptable before God. We have to use the discerning Spirit, and not our own desires or logic.

There are many forms of entertainment I am sure most of us would immediately agree is not good. Gambling, Trophy hunting, pornography, etc. Why are they not exceptable? If a Christian woman said to you that she is a porn star, how would you respond? What if she told you she does a disclaimer at the beginning of her movie that what she does is different than adultry because she is just acting?

The point is, some use "It's just entertainment" as an excuse to do what they want instead of what is right for God. Some use disclaimers to relieve themselves of any guilt and sense of responsability on how others may percieve them.

Some also use a disclaimer because they feel a moral obligation to the brother or sister who may not know the difference and can be a tool to educate a brother or sister in spiritual matters.

I ask questions to better understand, and to see if the person is able to answser why they do what they do with some sense of spiritual understanding.

If I was to use a disclaimer, I would use it as a tool to evangelize, not to put anyone at ease. But, again, that's my opinion, and I have experienced that some here do not share my same views.

Wow. Danny. You have some unique insight. Wow. Really, man. You get it. We overlook these things so easily. That's why I read your posts two, maybe three times. At different times.

I fear not only offending a brother or sister, but a secular person, giving them the WRONG impression of Christianity. Having been a radio disc jockey for forty years, I assume roles easily. I can play the act. That's why Magic came so easily.

Magic in a church can really be trouble. This is where discernment is important. The Zombie (for me) was a BIG mistake. That poor lady! ROFL! It was funny...but not really. She believed the floating silver ball was SATANIC! In her tiny mind, nothing else could be doing it!

I have since revised my act. I will never perform in another church. Anything. Not even stand-up comedy! Nope. Is it wrong to PRETEND to perform seances? Danny has a fantastic view on that. And what you find, when you open those "doors"...you cannot control. Briefly:

God has locked away certain rebel "beings". They were disobedient and are locked away in "Chains Of Darkness", whatever that is. If we release them...and they get out...God help us. We really have no idea. Not a clue. So, you see...Ouija Boards, Seances, Ghost Hunting...no. Not even. Never. Be safe, my friends!

Doug

I once performed a card trick for a few people (christians) afterward, one lady responded with "witchcraft is of Satan". I tried to explain to her that it was just a trick, slight of hand. She never seemed convinced, it seemed impossible to her therefore she classified it as supernatural and catagorized it as witchcraft. I just smiled and walked away - smiled because the routine must have been pretty convincing, walked away because some people are so set in there ways and ideas that there is nothing you can do. There is nothing wrong with being a magician, it is totally different from anything supernatural, unless you try to convince people it is real. In today's society people realize that a magician performs illusions and not supernatural feats. But just like some people still believe the earth is flat, there will always be people that just don't get it. That is sad, in my opinion, and as much as we might try to be all things to all people it is just not possible - people just contradict each other and some will require you not to use your God given gifts.

As much as some people have issues with magic, a seance goes much further, it will directly deal with supernatural themes and therefore can easily cross a line. As I stated earlier, if doing it in a way that demonstrates how they are fake and nothing more than magic tricks (using the opportunity to disprove what others claim, perhaps with an element of humor or parody), then it could possibly be done by a christian, in my opinion. However, for some christian groups even that would be inappropriate. If you were approaching it that way with a secular audience, then it may be appropriate.

Personally, I don't even use spirit or ghost themed magic routines, but would change the theme to something not supernatural. I don't want to blur the image of what I do as a magician. Or blur the image of what I believe when it comes to the supernatural. These matters must be handled carefully.

God given gifts versus our own talents/skills. Our skill and talents are the results of our efforts by means of learning through books, DVD's, practice, etc.

God given gifts are usually spiritual gifts that are given to us by God, for God's purpose and has nothing to do with our skills, talents, knowledge, nor wisdom.

I also fail to see what is fake about séances, and by leading people to believe they are all fake is not biblically correct. The Bible considers these experiences to be associated with deceiving spirits, demons, angels of light or counterfeits for the true Spirit of God. You might want to read all of 1 Samuel 28:1-25 There is a great gulf fixed between the abode of the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead which no one can cross. When there is supernatural activity in a seance, I'm pretty sure it's not the spirit of the dead person speaking through the medium. According to the scriptures it is not possible to contact the spirits of the dead. Jesus made this very clear with the account of the rich man and Lazarus. So, I believe it wasn't Samuel but a demon posing as him.


Isaiah 8:19 (KJV)
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Colossians 2:8 (KJV)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Our spiritual gifts usually give us the opportunity to use our talents, skills etc.. Someone who is skilled at cooking will find that skill useful as they prepare meals for those in need using their spiritual gift. Those who are teachers will find the use of many different skills and talents that aid in their teaching. Pastors make use of numerous talents and skills, not all pastors have the same skills. Yes, talents and gifts are different concepts, but are not unrelated. And if we are not allowed to use our talents in the execution of our gifts then we are not properly using our gifts. God gives us gifts, but he also gives us the ability, interest and desire to develop certain talents, and often those talents will be useful in carrying out our gifts. So if someone tells me I shouldn't use a skill I have, then they may be hindering me from using the gift God has given.

And no I do not believe that seances are real. yes, demons are real and active. but I have not been convinced of anyone having the power to conjure them up with the physical evidence demonstrated in a seance. They are all frauds in my opinion. That doesn't dismiss the spiritual realm, or the power of satan or demons, it just dismisses peoples ability to access them in such a way. so I don't have a problem telling people seances are fake and disagree that such a view is not biblically correct. And yes, playing with the occult, or any demonic activities is a serious matter with serious consequences. BUt psychics and seances are still frauds and fakes.

You fail to understand scripture, not me. The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best. If that does not suit you well, I am afraid to tell you that you lack faith in God, and put more of your faith in your talents instead. I can only advice that you seek God's Word through scripture rather than what you think and believe. I can tell you now with full spiritual conviction, that you are wrong in your assumption. I rebuke your assumptions. It's not that I am right, but rather what scripture tells us. The evidence is there for you if you so choose to read. If not, what else can I do?

You have been mislead to believe in a lie. Our pride at times can prohibited us from seeing the truth, but when we earnestly seek God's truth, it will be revealed to us.

Well now, no rebuking is necessary. I also lack faith in some things. No big deal. "...often those talents will be useful in carrying out our gifts." Yes, I agree. What we want to avoid is, "The appearance of doing wrong." Whatever that "doing wrong" is. The APPEARANCE.

The INTENT may be innocent, but the audiece decides. Discernment in choosing your audience is imperative. To me, a Seance for church members is equal to serving a Pork Roast at a Bar Mitzvah.

Doug

Entertainment invites a person to suspend their regular daily opinions about reality and enter the world of the entertainer. That act of entering someone else's world, whether through a book, a movie, or live theater, requires a certain amount of faith that this other world is safe and nothing there will hurt you. Thus we are invited to lower our defenses and "enjoy the ride".

In the secular realm, this usually poses very little problem. We are at this event because we're totally willing to absorb whatever the event brings to us. And in the totally "spiritual" realm (blanket term for church-type events comprised mostly of church people doing church-related things), we feel very safe and enjoying ourselves.

Most Christians are very aware that evil is more often low-key and seductive than brute force. So as we walk through life we are constantly on the defensive against the hidden "snares of the fowler" (Psalms 93). And those of us who have been or seen others enticed and tripped up or even completely ensared are especially vigilant. Some of these "watchful" types may be labelled "superstitious", and some of them actually are.

More common, though, are people who call themselves Christians but have the carnal appetites of "worldly" people. And it's seen a lot in their entertainment. They would never engage in murder, but they'll enjoy portrayals of all manner of hatred, vengeance, and brutality in their living room every night. They would never engage in sexual sins, but they'll enjoy all manner of sexual innuendo and tittilation in their movies and TV programs. And while they would never worship the devil nor call forth evil spirits, neither will they judge it whenever they come across it in their daily living.

"It doesn't bother me!" In my opinion, that's the biggest part of the problem: the seductions of the world don't really bother most church-goers (I'll be spare with the term "Christian" here). How is it that it bothered Jesus but not y'all?

The other side of that coin is that if you are not bothered by it, it may not dawn on you that it sure can bother other people. Maybe you really are a super-Christian and nothing the devil has can ever touch you - but are you at all sensitive to your brother and your duty to him?

The disclaimer should try to set people's minds at ease: "you are totally safe removing all of your spiritual armor during my program." Some will never, ever trust anyone saying that - and maybe they have reasons that are good to them while foolish to you: do you respect their spiritual walk enough to not despise them? They are responsible to Jesus alone for how they live; you are just as responsible to Jesus for your sensitivity to them.

Many good folk could never conceive of magic tricks in church. Yes, that's between them and their pastor. But while some are okay with a certain "depth" of trick, other styles of magic come far too close to the demonic in their mind. (And I have explained here before that I used to be one of the uninformed superstitious types - but I was still one of God's children.) We send out emails or make phone calls a day or two before a birthday party to make sure every bit of communication was understood - do we touch base with the pastor to make sure his church is okay with what we plan to do? Do we care about him and his church? Or just about "me"?

Personally, I would put a seance too close to the line in the secular realm. I can't expect sinners to be aware of the devil's enticements. Would the God Who loves them hold me accountable for breaking down the barriers even further? And 'way over the line in any church performance, with one exception: you are going to expose everything for the education of the church with the full appreciation of the pastor and church.

My two cents.
Ed

My fear of offending or stumbling a brother/sister or nonbeliever is a factor in ANY magic presented as entertainment. But my MOST prominent concern is whether or not I offend my Lord!! He is perfect, holy and righteous and hates evil. So I am careful not to portray any practice or behavior He hates! Even with magic I never let people think I'm suggesting anything other than light hearted "trickery" for fun is happening. I'm also careful to not let magic become an idol (if you're a Christian you know how magic as a hobby or interest can practically consume your every thought if you allow it).
The day I no longer think I can serve God and do magic...will be the day I abandon magic! I mean, why be so focused in this life on an activity that WILL NOT EXIST in the life to come? Does the absence of doing tricks and sleights in eternity disappoint you? Examine your heart and motives in all things.

I have to disagree, using our talents does not prevent God from working, but instead is being faithful to what God calls us to do. I have known preachers who do very little preparation for a sermon, but instead prefer to "let the spirit lead" when they speak. But the results always show in a poor and boring sermon. God expects us to put forth the effort, not just rely on him to overcome our lack of preparation and hard work. I watch others who use the gift God has given them to preach, they also develop their talents and skills, they study hard, prepare long hours and pray a lot for God's guidance. The Holy Spirit can lead in our preparation and guide in your study and hard work. God works through us, not around us - we are his hands and feet. The Scripture teaches hard work, preparation, growth. That doesn't mean that we do it and not God, or that our faith is in ourselves and not God. Just the opposite, we believe that God can work through the gifts he has given and the hard work and talents he can use. We also realize that God doesn't need us at all and we are blessed that he chooses to use us at all. And no, God doesn't need a perfect presentation or performance, but he calls us to do our best in all we do. That includes using our talents and developing them the best we can, not because God needs them, not because God can't do it without our help, but because we are called to do all to God's glory and that deserves our best effort. And if God uses that to make a difference we rejoice that God chose to use us and our feeble efforts, which are feeble no matter how talented anyone thinks they are. Yes, some people get overly caught up in their own talents and abilities and think that anything good that happens is because of what they did and because of their talent. I am not suggesting or promoting that at all. Just saying that developing talents and skills is a good thing and that God can use those in the exercise of whatever gift he has given. God calls us to put the hard work in, look at the example of Paul and his study and preparation. So I have to disagree with the statement: "The more we use our talents, the less we allow God to do what he does best."
I don't find scripture to support that idea at all, in fact I find scripture to teach just the opposite. The parable of the talents (money in this case) teaches that, different amounts were given to different people based on their ability, and the ones who used their abilities were rewarded and the one who did nothing with his abilities was punished.

You may disagree, but you are disagreeing with scripture, not with me. No where in scripture does God ever encourage us to excel in our own talents. In fact, I believe it's the contrary. We are to take the gifts God gives us and use them to the best of our ability, which means through faith. The less our own talents are used for God's purpose the more God gets credit, otherwise we may boast and say, "My skills help bring people to the God" How many times have you heard a gospel magician boast that their gospel ministry is a successful ministry in bringing children to Christ? They say, "Last week, we had 10 children come up after our show and receive Jesus in their heart." They defend their magic show ministry by saying, "We are doing God's work because we've had 37 children this month receive Jesus in their hearts."


Judges 7:2 (NIV) The Lord said to Gideon, "You have too many men for me to deliver Midian into their hands. In order that Israel may not boast against me that her own strength has saved her."

God obviously was not interested in human strength or talent. The basic principal is put in a couple of nice summary verses:


Zec 4:6 Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the Lord Almighty.
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.

Jer 17:5 Thus says the Lord, Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength...

Talents vs. Gifts

"Quibbling over the distinction between gifts and talents has little value in discovering what gifts we have. It would be odd for God, who made us, not to "build into" some of us natural talents that would later be used as gifts. On the other hand, neither should we be surprised if the Holy Spirit gives gifts to make up for a lack of natural ability. The value of understanding the difference between gifts and talents comes after discovering a spiritual gift--in understanding the temptations and pitfalls of obedience if natural talent is present, or absent.

For those with spiritual gifts that intersect with natural talent, there is always the temptation to minister in the power of the flesh. If this is the situation, we must be careful not to produce "Ishmael's" with the natural ability God has given us (Gal 4:23). We must wait upon the Lord to use our natural talent with supernatural results. Natural talent, after all, won't last long. But those who have learned to trust in God and are strong in the Lord will live forever (Luke 8:18).

For those who are gifted in areas where they have no talent, fear of failure can paralyze the spiritual gift. But if we are obedient to the Spirit's low-risk promptings, God will confirm the gift in us with power, and our confidence in God will grow into full maturity. (If pride grows as well, God will let us fall to remind us where the power comes from.) Those who excel in gifts where they have no talent bring glory to God and remind everyone just how gracious He is."


Philippians 3:7-13
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,


I don't recall ever saying our talents are bad, nor does using them prevent God from working. Nothing prevents God from working.

"we rejoice that God chose to use us and our feeble efforts" No, we shouldn't rejoice for this reason. Rejoice in the Lord only, and always.

"The parable of the talents (money in this case) teaches that, different amounts were given to different people based on their ability, and the ones who used their abilities were rewarded and the one who did nothing with his abilities was punished." I think you missed the actual point of this parable. The parable is about faithful service and unfaithful service, not about using our talents/skills. The master was to be gone a long time referencing Jesus' departure and return, and no one knowing the day, nor hour. He entrusted them with faith, some increased that faith, one servant did nothing with it.

According to Romans 12:3, God gives varying measures of faith to his people. Paul says that we ought "to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith" (emphasis added). In the context, this is not a limited reference to the unique spiritual gift of faith which only some believers have (1 Corinthians 12:9). For Paul says, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith. (emphasis added). "To each" refers back to "everyone among you." God has given all Christians varying measures of faith. This is the faith with which we receive and use our varying gifts. It is the ordinary daily trust of the Son of God (Galatians 2:20) by which we live and minister.

In the context, Paul is concerned that people were "thinking of themselves more highly than they ought to think." His final remedy for this pride is to say that, not only are our spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts. This means that every possible ground of boasting is taken away. How can we boast if even the qualification for receiving gifts is also a gift?

That's how important humility is in God's eyes. This is exactly the same aim of God mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 where Paul stresses that saving faith is a gift: "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not by works, so that no one may boast" (emphasis added). Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast. Or, as Romans 12:3 says, so that we will not think too highly of ourselves. The last bastion of pride is the belief that we are the originators of our faith. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/ar......h01.html


Romans 15:18, "For I will not presume to speak of anything accept what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles. You will say something like a paraphrase of 1 corinthians 4:7, "What did I have that I did not receive? If then I received it, why should I boast as if it were not a gift.?"

I hope you will turn to your Bible, maybe sit down with your Pastor or Priest. I also presented scripture in another post that proves séances can be very real with the example of Saul, but you still disagree? I am not trying to prove myself right, but trying to clear up an misunderstanding.

Having skills is not a bad thing as long as you don't ever take pride or boast in them, which gets tougher as you excel in those skills. Encouraging each other to continue to run the race, continue to have faith, putting God first is good. Encouraging each other to excel in the flesh, not always so good.

You are right when you said, "We also realize that God doesn't need us at all and we are blessed that he chooses to use us at all. And no, God doesn't need a perfect presentation or performance." God would rather use those who have little to no talents because His power is more evident and cannot be confused with someone's skills. That is what I mean when I say the more we use our skills the less God is given credit. God can use our skills, but God can use anything. He can even use a prideful man filled with conceit. He has used sinners, saints, and every type of person known to man. God is not limited, and is all powerful. He does not need us, but He loves us so much that He sent His only begotten son to pay the penalty of our sins so we should not perish but have everlasting life.

You both have jaw-dropping insight! I am so thankful for this! Our world is made up of dead water and The Flesh. Their world is made with Living Water and The Spirit. A difficult concept to grasp.

Doug

Looks like I've really opened a can of worms here!

Mike

Great insights all around Danny! And when it comes to any pastime or vocation where we "display" our gifts and talents (artist, musician, magician, juggler, etc..) and usually get much praise and recognition from others, there is a REAL danger for the Christian to become proud and "lean on his/her own understanding" as Proverb 3 warns against. I find that I have to exercise more discipline in these areas and constantly remind myself with scripture; that ALL that I do or have ability and talent to do, is GIVEN to me by God. Thus, I am merely a steward of something that is not my own! He made me, and also purchased me; so I am "twice His".
That being the case with all Christians, we should be very careful how we use those gifts and talents! Nadab and Abihu offered what they deemed acceptable fire to worship God, instead of abiding by His specific instructions. They were consumed by fire and destroyed.
We aren't free to just put a "gospel" wrapping on something warned against in scripture, and call it entertainment that God is pleased with, much less glorified by. There IS A LINE and we should stay far from it, instead of asking how close we can get to it without crossing.
Very very good discussion and points made by all here. I am encouraged!