The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » Would performing a Seance illusion be considered "un-christian"? (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
“....., you say that even though you make a disclaimer some still believe. Who do you make the disclaimer for? Your sake, or their sake? I ask because it seems your disclaimer fails to put everyone at ease, and I am trying to understand this. I am looking to learn more about this, thanks. “

Is this what you have alluded to twice now?

And the response I got, “Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”

Perhaps Bryan, if I had only responded back to your original request in the same manner, I would have saved myself from further questioning. I don't mind being questioned. I don't like when there is a hidden agenda behind it.

We have disagreed and a few points of scripture. I believe that seance's can be very real. You stated, “To clarify to the OP I think the idea of a seance with the exception of showing it to be fraudulent is not a good idea.”

I disagree. I don't think we should even be doing it to show that's it's fraudulent, especially when that isn't always the case. I provided scripture that shows that seances can be very real.

You didn't see the distinctions of earthly talents from the previous scriptures I posted.

Although I had previously posted scripture about our talents vs. God's gifts, you asked me, “Where on your view do talents come from” I didn't answer that question directly because it doesn't matter what my view on it is, and because I had already addressed that in a previous post. I provided scripture so we would have God's view.

You said, “after all one cannot learn to sing by simply taking courses.”

I believe that someone can learn how to sing by taking courses. You think our talents are gifts from God. Me being a good magician is not a gift from God. I work hard at it. I don't have to work hard to achieve God's gifts, but we all should work hard using them. You being a brilliant illusionist is not a gift from God. You studied it, practiced it, spent time learning about it, and worked hard to be the talent you are today.

“I know the parable of the servants uses the word talents, but hermeneutically we know that means an amount of money, so let's use sum for short. To some people he has given a certain sum, and to others a different sum, however which servant was not doing the right thing? The one who buried his sum and never used it. I want to hear well done good and faithful servant.”

This quote of yours led me to believe you too did not understand the parables meaning as I did. You see, I believe it is about Faith, and being ready for the Master's return.

“No matter how many lessons I take I'll never sing like Josh Groban.”

Why not? Have you tried? Just because we train to be the best hockey player in the world, doesn't mean we will be, no less become a professional. But, just because someone excels in their talents doesn't mean God gave it to them. Charles Manson was a great talker. He had many believing in his every word. I wouldn't say God gifted him with public speaking, or the ability to hold attention.

You asked, “Was Paul not gifted in debate and writing and out to use in Athens?” I could of just said no, but I provided scripture where Paul himself says no. 2 Corinthians 11:6 King James Bible
But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things. Where do you think Paul got his knowlege, from reading the Bible?

“I'm curious on your view of God's plan for people's lives?”

Where did that question come out of? Why were you even asking that question if you were apparently agreeing to what I was saying? And what did it have to do with anything we were talking about?

“ Does He not bless some with certain talents and abilities to use for his glory? “

I think scripture shows that He blesses our talents for His good, not our good, and as an example, the first review on your website gives you glory, not God. I don't know of where in scripture He blesses us with talents. He does bless us with gifts.

Then there are your comments such as this one, “You seem to suggest that the Holy Spirit can't work through people sharing the Gospel using their talents?”

If you read my posts you would of seen that was not the case at all. I make absolutely no suggestion through anything that I said of such a thing. Even if there might of been some confusion, this post I made clears it up, plus a few other ones I made, "God can use our skills, but God can use anything. He can even use a prideful man filled with conceit. He has used sinners, saints, and every type of person known to man. God is not limited, and is all powerful. He does not need us, but He loves us so much that He sent His only begotten son to pay the penalty of our sins so we should not perish but have everlasting life.

So, where did you get such an idea from?

And this, “You object to me asking questions on your opinion as if it's a bad thing, yet earlier you wrote to someone else that the reason you asked him so many questions was to learn. Am I not allowed the same opportunity.”

What opinion? I was using as many scriptures as I posibly could. Have I not given you that courtesy? Did I not give you that opportunity despite that opportunity not being given to me?
And, with out sounding like a broken record, where did I ever say I objected to you asking so many questions. Most of your questions were already answered in previous posts before you even asked them. My frustration comes out of the fact that you keep pretending that you are just asking questions to better understand. But you know that's not true. God knows that's not true. You had another motive behind your questioning. That is my discernment.

“Danny, to be honest you are just misunderstanding”

No Bryan, I don't think I was just misunderstanding at all.

I feel guilty and ashamed because I should of listened to a fellow brother and member of the Café who lovingly tried to warn me earlier about answering anymore questions from you. He saw what I failed to see, but I see it now. Lord forgive me of my pride.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Bryan Drake Show
View Profile
Regular user
Alabama
125 Posts

Profile of Bryan Drake Show
Danny I have no other motive brother. You are very confusing. Perhaps it's the fact that text doesn't convey tone.
Bryan Drake Show
View Profile
Regular user
Alabama
125 Posts

Profile of Bryan Drake Show
Also to clarify, I didn't write this.

“Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”
Bryan Drake Show
View Profile
Regular user
Alabama
125 Posts

Profile of Bryan Drake Show
I think things have gotten heated for no reason. I think we fundamentally disagree on the idea of a talent. I believe that God creates and has a plan for us including giving us inclinations and abilities to use for His glory and to bring others to know Him. Again suggesting I sing like Josh Groban if I only try is strange because I don't have a good singing voice. (Ask my wife lol)

“I'm curious on your view of God's plan for people's lives?”

Where did that question come out of? Why were you even asking that question if you were apparently agreeing to what I was saying? And what did it have to do with anything we were talking about? "

I asked that because I didn't understand that on your view talents come from people not from God. I now understand your view a little better.

But I would again like to clarify that it was not me who said this,

“Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”
Bryan Drake Show
View Profile
Regular user
Alabama
125 Posts

Profile of Bryan Drake Show
"I am only asking questions to better understand the reasoning of using disclaimers. My apologies for asking, but I was always taught if I don't ask questions how am I to ever learn or understand. Thank you for being kind enough to at least try."

This is what I was talking about brother.
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
Quote:
On 2013-12-05 21:10, Bryan Drake Show wrote:
Also to clarify, I didn't write this.

“Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”

The same thing I am talking about.
And to clarify, I didn't say you said it. But... since you already know who said it, (alluding to it twice) I didn't feel a need to mention their name.

“Dany
If you don't understand the three sentences I wrote more explanation will not help.”

was the response I got from him. Again, you already knew that didn't you?
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Bryan Drake Show
View Profile
Regular user
Alabama
125 Posts

Profile of Bryan Drake Show
No I didn't realize that, I just thought you had thought I said it. Sorry for the confusion on my end then.
Bryan Drake Show
View Profile
Regular user
Alabama
125 Posts

Profile of Bryan Drake Show
Ah crud see, I misattributed you saying "Is this what you were alluding to twice now" to that last post. See how confusing this can be sometimes. Again nothing sinister or mean meant at all by any of this on my end. I'm trying to have a good discussion, and that's what we've had.
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1790 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
I do an effect where I "channel" Moses. I do it to show how someone can be "taken in", when an idea, no matter how preposterous it may seem, is presented in a serious manner. It is part of my re-creation of fraudulent psychic phenomena. I give a disclaimer at the beginning of the show and off I go.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Angio333
View Profile
Regular user
130 Posts

Profile of Angio333
Quote:
On 2013-11-27 17:45, mikewarner wrote:
I perform mostly for secular audiences. My question was really about whether it was acceptable for a Christian to perform something like this.
- C
Dougini
View Profile
Inner circle
The Beautiful State Of Maine
6724 Posts

Profile of Dougini
Quote:
On 2013-12-05 19:58, Danny Kazam wrote:
You think our talents are gifts from God. Me being a good magician is not a gift from God. I work hard at it. I don't have to work hard to achieve God's gifts, but we all should work hard using them.


God's gift is NOT the talent. God's gift to us is having the ability to USE it for God.

Quote:
You being a brilliant illusionist is not a gift from God. You studied it, practiced it, spent time learning about it, and worked hard to be the talent you are today.


The gift is the ABILITY to do such! We can take it as far as we want. Talents may not be "gifts", per se. But having the ABILITY in the first place, is.

Doug
katyannmarie
View Profile
New user
15 Posts

Profile of katyannmarie
Andre Kole did a wonderful mock of what goes on in a "séance." One of the lines I remember from it was that he had to go behind a curtain because "no self-respecting spook will show up in the light" or something to that effect. If the goal is to show that séance magic is really no different than any other type of trick, I'd say to go for it.
I do agree with the posters who say that Christians are highly superstitious. They don't know what the Bible actually says about fortune tellers or psychics or whatever they want to call them, so they think they get their power from Satan. Truth is, no psychic or fortune teller has any more powers than any other magicians. It's all a trick.
If you want to educate on the fraud, do so. If you want to perpetuate the fraud, by suggesting that there is something supernatural behind a séance, you will confuse a lot of people.
I think the thing that has to be done is to show that there is nothing supernatural behind a Ouija board, table tipping, or the possibility to communicate with the dead, but that the BELIEF that there is something supernatural behind it (whether that belief comes from ignorant Christians or ignorant unbelievers) is the key to its alleged "powers."
The question of whether to do it is the goal. What do you hope to accomplish?
Dougini
View Profile
Inner circle
The Beautiful State Of Maine
6724 Posts

Profile of Dougini
Quote:
On 2013-12-28 17:34, katyannmarie wrote:
I think the thing that has to be done is to show that there is nothing supernatural behind a Ouija board...but that the BELIEF that there is something supernatural behind it (whether that belief comes from ignorant Christians or ignorant unbelievers) is the key to its alleged "powers."


Hi Katy! Welcome to the Café! I won't go into detail. A Ouija board CAN be a VERY dangerous thing. Whether you believe in the supernatural or not. You don't and that's OK. I have seen otherwise FIRST HAND. My sister in Calif has a neighbor that had a TERRIBLE experience. The hospital was STUNNED when he came in.

There ARE things in this world you do NOT want to mess with. The Bible warns us...it is VERY real. Calling us "ignorant Christians"...is just not accurate. We are ALL unaware of what lies "beyond the veil"...plus, once one opens certain "doors", human beings are NOT equipped to control what comes through. Nor can we CLOSE those "doors" once opened.

Doug
Mel Yoder
View Profile
New user
29 Posts

Profile of Mel Yoder
Hi doug,I have to agree with you.Messing around with the dark spirit world is nothing to play with.It can open up a door to actually be possessed.And the board is one of them.

Mel
Theodore Lawton
View Profile
Inner circle
1631 Posts

Profile of Theodore Lawton
I personally would stay away from doing seances for any reason. We want to avoid the appearance of evil. We want to keep others from stumbling. We want to give glory to God in every area of our life. And there are much more entertaining things I can think of doing than attempting to introduce the occult into my act- even if it's to debunk it. Stephen had a great point when he mentioned that the one we really don't want to offend is God. We are accountable to Him so the real question is: Is it okay for YOU in your relationship with God and according to what the Scriptures say, to do a trick like this? Usually if I find myself questioning something and asking other Christians if it's okay then it isn't. - just my personal experience, but the Holy Spirit has various ways of getting our attention as to what is right and wrong for us.

Mike- What are your motivations for showing such a trick? Do you even want to show one or are you just asking the question? Please share with us what; if anything, you have learned from the conversation so far.

Katy- Welcome to the Café. There are evil forces at work in the world. Some people do receive supernatural powers from demonic influence. Sure, most psychics are pure frauds, but sometimes there are demonic forces at work and Scripture does back this up.

From the book of Acts chapter 16: 16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” 18 And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour. 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.

There are also demonically possessed people still living with us in the here and now. Mark 5: 1-20 recounts the meeting of Jesus with a demon possessed man. I have seen demoniacs with my own eyes and know for certain that this is still going on today. Whether they are merely aggressive, have powers to tell fortunes, "know" things that would ordinarily be impossible to know; or what have you, this aspect of the spiritual world is very real and should be taken seriously.

The good news is that; if you are saved: greater is He that is in you than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4.
Magic is the bacon in the breakfast of life.

............................................

God bless you and have a magical day
Dougini
View Profile
Inner circle
The Beautiful State Of Maine
6724 Posts

Profile of Dougini
By the way, to answer a PM here, aliens/ET/EBE or whatever you want to call them are NOT demons. Nor are they angels. They are of THIS realm like us. They are technologically advanced, some WAY more than us, but they are still mortal. Do not assume a visitation is of The Devil. I just wanted to state that...

Doug
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
I will Amen that.

Quote:
On 2013-12-28 19:23, Theodore Lawton wrote:
I personally would stay away from doing seances for any reason. We want to avoid the appearance of evil. We want to keep others from stumbling. We want to give glory to God in every area of our life. And there are much more entertaining things I can think of doing than attempting to introduce the occult into my act- even if it's to debunk it. Stephen had a great point when he mentioned that the one we really don't want to offend is God. We are accountable to Him so the real question is: Is it okay for YOU in your relationship with God and according to what the Scriptures say, to do a trick like this? Usually if I find myself questioning something and asking other Christians if it's okay then it isn't. - just my personal experience, but the Holy Spirit has various ways of getting our attention as to what is right and wrong for us.

Mike- What are your motivations for showing such a trick? Do you even want to show one or are you just asking the question? Please share with us what; if anything, you have learned from the conversation so far.

Katy- Welcome to the Café. There are evil forces at work in the world. Some people do receive supernatural powers from demonic influence. Sure, most psychics are pure frauds, but sometimes there are demonic forces at work and Scripture does back this up.

From the book of Acts chapter 16: 16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” 18 And this she did for many days.

But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour. 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities.

There are also demonically possessed people still living with us in the here and now. Mark 5: 1-20 recounts the meeting of Jesus with a demon possessed man. I have seen demoniacs with my own eyes and know for certain that this is still going on today. Whether they are merely aggressive, have powers to tell fortunes, "know" things that would ordinarily be impossible to know; or what have you, this aspect of the spiritual world is very real and should be taken seriously.

The good news is that; if you are saved: greater is He that is in you than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
Edited due to double post resulting in very old technology software that runs the Café. Not equipped to handle mobile phones or tablets.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
tboehnlein
View Profile
Inner circle
ohio
1779 Posts

Profile of tboehnlein
I agree greatly with Katie, Andre did a wonderful job of presenting a seance in his act w/o offending. Additionally I support what she states about Ouija boards and table tipping a bit of education can go a long way, do you folks really bevel that the Ouija works any different than a pendulum.
frankie5aces
View Profile
New user
Nowhere
77 Posts

Profile of frankie5aces
To the OP.

totally not cool.
you definitely don't want to give the impression to other Christians, and even non-Christians that this is OK.. by means of entertainment.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » Would performing a Seance illusion be considered "un-christian"? (2 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.53 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL