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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Magicians fooling Magicians - Just Pure "EGO"? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Alex L. Molina
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Hello All Smile

Happy Holidays...

Although the ultimate "high" for me (and I assume it indeed is for most Entertainers), whether as an Actor/Filmmaker or Magician, is of course to Entertain audiences in some profound way, I must admit (lol) I derive great pleasure from fooling knowledgeable/experienced Magicians.

The idea of "motivation" to specifically engage in this came-up when I was speaking to my very best friend (both in Magicdom & the World - lol - SUP, BOB COONEY ;-)

I was showing him a modified handling of a ret**tion p**s w/a silver-dollar I had come-up with that I was excited would fool Magicians; noticing I was so fervently taking it so seriously to perfect the move from all angles, he asked me a simple "not-so-innocent" Q: Would you use this for lay performances, too?

Knowing eachother as well as we do, & both being Passionate bout Personal-Growth/Spirituality (even more so than bout Magic), it got me thinkin'... the answer was NO, I could envision no real-life lay performance situation where I would feel it necessary, or even wise from a performance-psychology point of view, to utilize my new move as opposed to using my R-P moves I've been doing for decades.

So, is this indeed just pure EGO - lol - if so, is that necessarily a "bad" thing?

I feel much profound Love for fellow Magicians, just like I do with fellow Actors - it's the "kindred spirits" feeling; I never feel the desire to "fool" Actors into thinking I wasn't Acting - lol - so in the, albeit rare, instances when the desire to create something specifically to fool Magicians creeps-up... I dunno, I know I'm rambling now, Guys... just got me thinkin' is all (perhaps over-thinking, perhaps taking it too seriously)...
"YOU Are The MAGIC"

Peace, Love, & Success
alex

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Nate The Magician
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Alex-
You are not alone in the desire to stump your fellow magician.
IMHO, magic is even better when the audience has an inkling of how a trick would work before the trick starts- as long as you still fool them. I personally have had masters of the craft pick up my props and fool me beyond anything- and that's true magic IMO.
The trick that I've personally found myself working more and more magician-foolers into is the cups and balls. What I normally do is I start the routine, then ask if anyone there is a magician and use that information to guide my choice for doing either the layperson routine or the slightly (pun intended) more prestidigitory routine for magicians.
-Nate
Ado
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I should always be able to fool magicians. That's my moto. It's not about using moves they don't know, it's about doing so well moves they may know, that they won't be able to distinguish moves from natural actions ("mouvement vrai" as we say in French). If a magician cannot see the moves, then a layman wouldn't either. It's also a great exercise in technique, because some moves that work very well may not be perceived as logical, and must then be avoided so as not to trigger the "that's a move!" flag. An example is the retention vanish. Not that it can't be done, but it has to be justified because it rarely happens in the wilderness...

P!
Alex L. Molina
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Quote:
On 2013-11-27 01:20, Nate The Magician wrote:
Alex-
You are not alone in the desire to stump your fellow magician.
IMHO, magic is even better when the audience has an inkling of how a trick would work before the trick starts- as long as you still fool them. I personally have had masters of the craft pick up my props and fool me beyond anything- and that's true magic IMO.
The trick that I've personally found myself working more and more magician-foolers into is the cups and balls. What I normally do is I start the routine, then ask if anyone there is a magician and use that information to guide my choice for doing either the layperson routine or the slightly (pun intended) more prestidigitory routine for magicians.
-Nate


lol - thx for the reply, bro - funny, one of the "magician-foolers" I am most proud of is my handling for the final-loads in C&B

would love to talk-shop, Bro Smile
"YOU Are The MAGIC"

Peace, Love, & Success
alex

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Alex L. Molina
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Quote:
On 2013-11-27 02:01, Ado wrote:
I should always be able to fool magicians. That's my moto. It's not about using moves they don't know, it's about doing so well moves they may know, that they won't be able to distinguish moves from natural actions ("mouvement vrai" as we say in French). If a magician cannot see the moves, then a layman wouldn't either. It's also a great exercise in technique, because some moves that work very well may not be perceived as logical, and must then be avoided so as not to trigger the "that's a move!" flag. An example is the retention vanish. Not that it can't be done, but it has to be justified because it rarely happens in the wilderness...

P!


well expressed point, Ado Smile

specifically, tho, I'm more so referring to actually fooling magicians without them then knowing the method, as opposed to doing well-known "kickle-busting" sleights so masterfully that they "miss" it, but then know (for example) "well he obviously did a deck-switch but I keep missing it" (which is a lot of fun too Smile
"YOU Are The MAGIC"

Peace, Love, & Success
alex

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pepka
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I too get a serious rush from this. I have 2 routines that are almost exclusively done for other magicians at a convention or at a session. One of my favorite stories is during one trip to Vegas for Magic Live, I was sitting around a table in the lobby with a few other guys just watching each other. My turn came and there was an VERY annoying 13-14 year old kid who was in the group and would interrupt everyone and comment on their move in the middle of a routine. "Oh, man.....I like your 2nd deal. I do a Hermann pass just like that." I decided there was just one way to fool this little punk. Borrow his deck, have him shuffle, and do a self working trick. I had learned this certain routine just in passing, and never really had no plan on doing it. He followed me around for 3 days, BEGGING how this thing worked. Since it's not mine, I didn't feel comfortable exposing it. But I DID feel comfortable driving him crazy.

I've since written a good script for it and it's now my closer to my formal show, and occasionally for VIPs at my restaurant or bar gigs.

No argument, it's a serious high to fool other magicians. One of the greatest ideas for this is from Steve Bedwell. He likes to tell someone the wrong source for something that has fooled them. Fooling them with something brand new, or better yet....VERY old and tell them...."Oh...that's a Download on the Dan and Dave website." Or whatever.
Frank Yuen
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Magician foolers are great for sessioning because you are providing an experience that many magicians have lost over the years - the experience of being fooled. It may or may not be true for the layperson but for experienced magicians it really is fun to be fooled.
Alex L. Molina
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On 2013-11-27 03:06, Frank Yuen wrote:
Magician foolers are great for sessioning because you are providing an experience that many magicians have lost over the years - the experience of being fooled. It may or may not be true for the layperson but for experienced magicians it really is fun to be fooled.


Hey Frank Smile

now THAT's the BEST reason/excuse I've gotten for indulging my "egoic" desires, Bro - lol - honestly, I can't believe I never really thought of it that way, cause the one thing I miss most as a Magician is never being able to experience that wide-eyed/mouth-agape feeling of awesome-wonder again that I will always remember palpably to this day I felt with the very first Close-Up effect I ever saw at age 11 - so I can imagine Magicians (most of them anyway - lol Smile feel the same way being able to have at least some level of that experience again

Thanks, Frank Smile
"YOU Are The MAGIC"

Peace, Love, & Success
alex

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funsway
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I agree with the special thrill, but discount that this must come from egoic desires. If one accepts the maxim of "know your audience," and the wise extension to select effects and patter suited to thqat audience, then to NOT cater to the unique expectations and knowledge of this "all magiciian" audience would be folly. In fact, being able to adapt a favorite routine to this setting is good training for future "special audiences."

Take, for example, the practiced ability to perform a Chop Cup type routine using an ordinary cup. For your magicians you would select a cup that resembles a standard Chop Cup and start off with some traditional moves to "set them up." Then you throw in a couple of moves not possible with a Chop Cup gimmick including final proof that everything is ungimmicked. You get accolades for "being clevedr" -- but are also now prepared to perform a "one cup routine" in nay setting and with "found objects." When you later pick up a coffe mug and coffee creamer at a restaurant and perform a One Cup Routine it is becasu eyou have the confidence and skills developed at the expense of your magician friends.

However, I have sometimes "spoofed" a popular effect by saying, "If I wanted to do a Three Fly Routine," or similar. I would then do a routine as a fake "teach in" with unexpected results and even "mistakes" that trun out right. Maybe that is inspired by ego -- or just a desire to win the contest. Then the ideal response is complete silence rather than applause, and couples gathered and pointing at you later. I would never do that before a lay audience.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Faulkner
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Jon Racherbaumer use to come by the magic shop and would fool us from time to time, once he just killed us then he showed us what he was doing...svengali deck.

On the other hand I have a friend who has a thought I like..."I never work on magician foolers, magicians don't pay the bills".
Faulkner
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Jon Racherbaumer use to come by the magic shop and would fool us from time to time, once he just killed us then he showed us what he was doing...svengali deck.

On the other hand I have a friend who has a thought I like..."I never work on magician foolers, magicians don't pay the bills".
Payne
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I'd rather entertain my audience than fool them. This goes doubly so for magicians as well. The compliment I most enjoy receiving from my fellow magi is "I always hated that trick, until I saw you do it"

Setting out with the sole purpose of fooling your brethren is a fool's errand. It is difficult to come up with a move or method that your average magician hasn't seen or at least is familiar with. Even if your execution of a sleight is flawless many magicians will be able to backwards engineer the routine and deduce what moves you did and when. But even if they are completely blown away by your effect they will sit there stone-faced and not admit that they were totally fooled.

So when I have to perform for a room full of magicians I take a different tack. I generally lampoon a classic effect like the coin in bottle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VCUQ3wOBog


Or turn a prop on it's side like my Single Stick Chinese Stick Routine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV49C449slU

or my version of the Television Card Frame

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV49C449slU
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Pete Biro
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Like PAYNE my goal is to entertain first. If I do something I created and it fools magicians, fine. But if it wasn't entertaining it fails.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Payne
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Quote:
On 2013-11-27 11:52, Pete Biro wrote:
Like PAYNE my goal is to entertain first. If I do something I created and it fools magicians, fine. But if it wasn't entertaining it fails.


It appears I am in fine company.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Nate The Magician
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On 2013-11-27 11:36, Payne wrote:
I'd rather entertain my audience than fool them. This goes doubly so for magicians as well. The compliment I most enjoy receiving from my fellow magi is "I always hated that trick, until I saw you do it"

Setting out with the sole purpose of fooling your brethren is a fool's errand. It is difficult to come up with a move or method that your average magician hasn't seen or at least is familiar with. Even if your execution of a sleight is flawless many magicians will be able to backwards engineer the routine and deduce what moves you did and when. But even if they are completely blown away by your effect they will sit there stone-faced and not admit that they were totally fooled.




I live in a college town so every audience I get are "Experts" (laymen who went through a magic phase at the age of twelve and think they know everything) and will try to see through any kind of trick that I do- thus I too put most of my focus into being entertaining (and gathering a tip- nevertheless, IMHO it is the responsibility of a magician to fool people- at least a little bit- lest we merely be thought actors or really bad improvateurs. That's why I always throw in a few magician foolers to throw off the noisome hecklers.

Also, Master Payne, you're possibly one of the more entertaining magicians I've seen- and you succeed greatly in fooling the crowds. Just saying.
kentfgunn
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Payne, you are indeed an entertaining performer. Your stuff rocks on every level.

I do not perform for pay any more. I still feel very strongly that, if you tout yourself as a magician, you have to deceive your audience. If nothing you do appears magical to the audience you're a different sort of entertainer. Clowns and ventriloquists come to mind. That's fine. That's still entertainment.

Most non-magicians are far more likely to intuit how or what you're doing than the average, lackluster magician has any inkling of. If you raise the level at which you perform to a point where you fool most magicians, you'll have those laymen eating out of your hand. Really, there is almost no difference in the workings of a layperson's mind and a magician's. If you're doing stock stuff, you won't fool the magicians or someone who once had an interest in magic.

You can still take tricks like; The Cups and Balls, Billiard Balls and The Linking Rings and fool the snot out of people, all whilst entertaining them. These tricks are sold in every magic shop and most people know there's four balls and at that at least one of the rings has a slot in it (they know about that darned shell too). It ain't the limited knowledge we cling to so desperately that is important. The ability to take these simple props and create a sequence of events that amaze, surprise and entertain is what's important.

That's what makes you a magician in their eyes and not just your own. If you don't practice, write your own scripts and rehearse, you're probably fooling an audience of one. It's that guy in the mirror.

If you're not fooling them, you're a frikkin' clown.

It's okay to be a clown, but it's important to know it.

"Clownboy- Gunn"

KG
Nate The Magician
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I absolutely agree. Fooling your audience is essential- no fooling!
That being said, there are some magician fooler kinds of things that laymen just can't follow; Aldo Columbini's routine with the cups and balls -while beautiful- is also kind of weird in its presentation. It has no final loads, no patter- the magic speaks for itself but a layman might not find it entertaining enough. As Dai Vernon said "Confusion isn't magic".
Payne
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I agree that tricking, fooling or mystifying ones audience is a requirement of being a magician. It's just not my central focus.

This more or less explains my philosophy and outlook on the subject

http://vimeo.com/77456429
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
kentfgunn
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Grand stuff there MP.

Grand stuff.

KG

PS. I too was born sans sense of wonder.
Nate The Magician
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I have to applaud your lecture Master Payne.
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