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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Is a university education worth it these days? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Zombie Magic
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On 2013-12-05 16:16, Dannydoyle wrote:
I must say it depends.

What exactly do you want to do with your life? What are the goals and ambitions set forth before you. Often a University education can further those goals and indeed is the ONLY way to do so.

Is it a guarantee of success? ABSOLUTELY not. Many have them and fail, many don't have them and succeed. An education is a tool. No better or worse than the person who uses it. Having the tool is a great thing. Knowing how to use it is invaluable.


:applause: Smile Smile

So well said!
Slide
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Well you are denying the importance of the teacher. My music teacher, William Duckworth, passed less than a year ago and I cried like a baby for days. That guy changed my life. He not only taught me about people like John Cage, he introduced him to me and made sure I was in a concert he conducted. In college I had dinner with Edward Albee, knew the guy, Rod Whittiker, who wrote the Trevanian books. My poetry teacher also changed my life and the way I read and value literature. All of these teachers literally made me what I am today.

And as far as contacts, that is why you go to a good business school...not for the learning, but for the contacts. The contacts are going to determine exactly how successful you are going to be in life. Everyone gets their opportunities and breaks because of someone they know. You can't replicate that on an online course or in a book.
tommy
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One my nephews mother was a teacher and she brought her son up in very strict manner. He did extremely well at school. When he got to university it was his first taste of freedom. He went wild, on drugs booze and wild wild women. He learnt nothing and dropped out. Today he is what I call an hippy. He has never got any money but he has a good time. His mother is ashamed of him. Such is life. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Dannydoyle
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I certainly did not mean to leave out the teacher. I am sorry if it came across like that.

Though they need to be able to have something to work with.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RNK
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On 2013-12-05 16:08, Slide wrote:
"They have to take a lot more of these social classes in today's colleges than 10-15 years ago."

Social class? Is that a term. I don't think I've ever heard it. Back when I was in college in the 70's everyone took art, music, philosophy: the humanities are a big part of the curriculum regardless of your major.


I was responding to Bob C's use of the term "Social Classes". I guess from reading the post you couldn't understand that. But yes- you are correct- they are more of the humanities curriculum or they are also called your general classes whereas the classes in your major are called your core classes.

RNK
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On 2013-12-05 16:43, Slide wrote:

And as far as contacts, that is why you go to a good business school...not for the learning, but for the contacts. The contacts are going to determine exactly how successful you are going to be in life. Everyone gets their opportunities and breaks because of someone they know. You can't replicate that on an online course or in a book.


You can make contacts at every college or university, some to a greater degree. Not just at a business school. That's how I got my first job, the company dealt directly with my professor who I was completing my thesis under for a science degree. That's one major advantage of going to school to obtain a degree.

RNK
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Some thoughts:

Back "when", the advantage of a college degree was that it "got your foot in the door and the rest of your success was up to you". The more prestigious the school the more prestigious companies you could select. You were exposed to different disciplines and "majored" in a select few. Your pathway to knowledge made you a unique individual and only those that took a similar path could follow.

Now the world is so different. Information and the ability for most everyone in the world to access it has been a great equalizer. Before you had to go to institutions of higher learning to become educated, not so now. Spend some time on the internet and you can learn anything good or bad. The drawback may be social skills but you can educate yourself and cheaply. Hopefully the social skills will come. A sufficient amount of drive and discipline is assumed.

If I could do it over again, with today's technology, I would go to a trade school, gain hands on knowledge, or seek a specialized academy where I could learn a needed skill and provide value to an employer immediately (or start my own business with mentoring). I would selectively use the money that would go to a university in other ways.

With today's fast moving economy, some career paths start and end just during your college years.
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-12-06 08:48, RNK wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-12-05 16:08, Slide wrote:
"They have to take a lot more of these social classes in today's colleges than 10-15 years ago."

Social class? Is that a term. I don't think I've ever heard it. Back when I was in college in the 70's everyone took art, music, philosophy: the humanities are a big part of the curriculum regardless of your major.


I was responding to Bob C's use of the term "Social Classes". I guess from reading the post you couldn't understand that. But yes- you are correct- they are more of the humanities curriculum or they are also called your general classes whereas the classes in your major are called your core classes.

RNK


Interesting, since I never used the term. I referred to the social sciences (which include psychology, sociology,anthropology, political science, etc.)
Slide
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"You can make contacts at every college or university, some to a greater degree. Not just at a business school. "

I know. I was using the example of business school because schools like Stern business school do not allow you to take classes online or at night. The only reason is that they believe the contacts you make going to school full time are a major part of the degree.
mastermindreader
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I can't imagine how the Socratic method, the primary way that law is taught, can be used outside of a classroom setting. The idea that the prevalence of information on the internet makes formal education unnecessary is, IMO, completely wrong. Did libraries and book stores make formal education obsolete as well?

Bringing it closer to home- Would you say that learning magic or music, etc. one-on-one from a good teacher is obsolete because you can learn all you need on the Internet? (Have you seen the quality of internet "tutorials?")
tommy
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The old school tie, eh. Any fellow bones men here?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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0pus
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There are some things that I think are just "worth it."

Education is one of those things.

I also think that scientific research ("pure" research, not product development), the space program, building the large hadron collider (I lament that the US Congress cut off funding for building one in the US), and the fine arts are "worth it."

I can't justify this opinion with dollars and cents. But some things cannot be measured in mere dollars and cents. In fact, my life is really not an exercise in maximization of revenue.
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2013-12-05 14:16, mastermindreader wrote:
I know very well what classical educations are based on. It's unfortunate that so many people today are ignorant of philosophy, comparative religions, world literature, the social sciences and foreign languages. While our educational system focuses more and more on narrow specialties, primarily designed to enhance ones worth in the job market, graduates are becoming increasingly dumber than previous generations and far less able to think critically in areas outside of their own fields.

Post of the year.
critter
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I value my education highly, and I've worked hard for it. There are no inflated grades where I come from, I've compared records with friends. I am concerned that the large amount of debt I graduate with doesn't match too well with my likely prospective salary. It's going to be a struggle. That said, I love being in the lab. I love studying human nature. It's my passion.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Dannydoyle
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Critter the debt thing bites.

There is a college here called The College of the Ozarks. "Hard Work U" as it is refered to. The students work campus jobs and after 4 years graduate debt free. Students get scooped up after graduating pretty quick. Only about 1,700 students. Many of the slots go to economically disadvantaged students.

Literally the entire campus is student labor. 15 hours a week, plus five classes. Security, lawn care, the restaurant, milking the cows, all the farm work, running the power station, maintenance and literally everything. They have supervisors but it is students doing it all. After four years you have a BS or a BA. Not so horrible.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Danny, it's a nice thing the College of the Ozarks is doing, but I think it should be clear what the deal is:

1) The college does not charge tuition.
2) Students work about 15 hours a week to pay for their room and board.
3) It's an Evangelical Christian school that can afford to let its 1400 students attend tuition-free as it has a 355 million dollar endowment.

I only bring this up because there are hundreds of thousands of students around the country who work at college work-study jobs 15-20 hours a week in order to help pay their expenses; and many many more who work at non-college sponsored jobs to finance their educations. My son, a junior in college, works 20 hours a week as a bank teller.

So the trick isn't so much to find a part-time job, as to find a college that does not charge tuition! (Or if your grades, etc., are high enough, to get a full scholarship.)

At one time in this country, there was an amazing public City University system in NYC that was tuition-free. Socialism, gasp! Colin Powell and probably more Nobel prize winners than have ever come from one university system came through that system. Now, evidently, lawmakers and politicians no longer believe in the same kind of funding for public higher education, on the federal, state, or city level.

This is a major reason the choices are now so hard.

BTW here's some more info about the College of the Ozarks:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/19......394.html
Dannydoyle
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Yes GOD FORBID they are a Christian school. I see the problem yes. OH MY GOD they are a conservative leaning philosophy as well. Maybe they should be shut down huh?

Why did I know this would happen?

I never said others didn't work through college. I simply said this was an interesting way to be debt free.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Danny, I wasn't criticizing the college in the least.
I was agreeing with you.
I was pointing out that the key to being debt free is to find a tuition free college--as the students who go to the College of the Ozarks did.
critter
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Quote:
On 2013-12-07 00:40, Dannydoyle wrote:
Critter the debt thing bites.

There is a college here called The College of the Ozarks. "Hard Work U" as it is refered to. The students work campus jobs and after 4 years graduate debt free. Students get scooped up after graduating pretty quick. Only about 1,700 students. Many of the slots go to economically disadvantaged students.

Literally the entire campus is student labor. 15 hours a week, plus five classes. Security, lawn care, the restaurant, milking the cows, all the farm work, running the power station, maintenance and literally everything. They have supervisors but it is students doing it all. After four years you have a BS or a BA. Not so horrible.


I worked in the biology lab for my first two year degree and got $12 an hour. It was awesome! The jobs were all full up when I transferred to the four year. Even the loans weren't too bad until I went on to graduate school though. Now I work in a lab anyway but I'm paying for it instead of getting paid. But I have an office now Smile

Still not complaining about anything but those loans. I love everything else about school. Even crazy bible guy shouting fire and brimstone in front of the PUB and the campus PD that pointed Tasers at me.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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