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landmark
Inner circle
within a triangle
5194 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 05:38 am
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Quote: Mandela aligned himself with those the western world considers to be enemies, and he did so to fight against the bigger enemies.
He aligned with those who would help him fight the South African apartheid government. Unfortunately the US govt was not one of those willing to help. In fact Reagan reversed standing US policy in order to aid the SA regime and vetoed Congress's sanctions against the regime. Fortunately, Congress, including many Republicans, voted to override the veto. Why did Reagan choose to support the apartheid regime? You'll have to research that one for yourself. I'm not allowed to talk politics here.
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alexander_may
Loyal user
South Africa
296 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 06:11 am
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Regardless now of his earlier life, he did bring enemies together with his message of reconciliation. Even today at his funeral, look who will be sharing the stage... although they are placed far apart on the programme
— Tribute Speech by U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon.
— Tribute Speech by African Union Commission Chairwoman Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma.
— Tribute Speech by US President Barack Obama.
— Tribute Speech by Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff.
— Tribute Speech by Chinese Vice President Li Yuanchao.
— Tribute Speech by Namibian President Hifikepunye Pohamba.
— Tribute Speech by Indian President Pranab Mukherjee.
— Tribute Speech by Cuban President Raul Castro.
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Slide
Special user
533 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 06:20 am
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Danny I'm too tired and too apathetic to even understand what you are talking about. In any life event, there are those who show respect and humble themselves to the situation and there are those that need attention and will use any event, no matter how personal, symbolic, or meaningful to people to move forward their pet cause.
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Pakar Ilusi
Inner circle
5777 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 11:56 am
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Great speech/eulogy by President Obama just now.
A sad day but still very inspiring remembering Madiba.
RIP Mr. Mandela.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Destiny
Inner circle
1429 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 01:48 pm
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Ironic that the best two speeches were Obama and Castro.
Mandela was the great man of his era - for all South Africa's problems, imagine if it had been Mugabe in 1994 instead of Mandela - his forgiveness and vision for a united future based on equality and decency was nothing short of majestic.
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Danny Kazam
Inner circle
1516 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 01:58 pm
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Quote: On 2013-12-10 01:20, Slide wrote:
Danny I'm too tired and too apathetic to even understand what you are talking about. In any life event, there are those who show respect and humble themselves to the situation and there are those that need attention and will use any event, no matter how personal, symbolic, or meaningful to people to move forward their pet cause.
That explains it.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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magicfish
Inner circle
7016 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 01:59 pm
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Good point, Destiny, Im learning a lot from this thread.
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Mr. Mystoffelees
Inner circle
I haven't changed anyone's opinion in
3623 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 02:33 pm
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Quote: On 2013-12-09 23:35, landmark wrote:
History can be useful in understanding a person's motives. Let Mandela speak for himself. Some more from Mandela's 1964 speech to the court, explaining the reason the ANC took up arms after decades of non-violent resistance.
Quote: ...In 1960 there was the shooting at Sharpeville, which resulted in the proclamation of a state of emergency and the declaration of the ANC as an unlawful organisation. My colleagues and I, after careful consideration, decided that we would not obey this decree. The African people were not part of the government and did not make the laws by which they were governed. We believed in the words of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that 'the will of the people shall be the basis of authority of the government,' and for us to accept the banning was equivalent to accepting the silencing of the Africans for all time. The ANC refused to dissolve, but instead went underground. We believed it was our duty to preserve this organisation which had been built up with almost fifty years of unremitting toil. I have no doubt that no self-respecting white political organisation would disband itself if declared illegal by a government in which it had no say.
In 1960 the government held a referendum which led to the establishment of the republic. Africans, who constituted approximately 70 per cent of the population of South Africa, were not entitled to vote, and were not even consulted about the proposed constitutional change. All of us were apprehensive of our future under the proposed white republic, and a resolution was taken to hold an all-in African conference to call for a national convention, and to organise mass demonstrations on the eve of the unwanted republic, if the government failed to call the convention. The conference was attended by Africans of various political persuasions. I was the secretary of the conference and undertook to be responsible for organising the national stay-at-home which was subsequently called to coincide with the declaration of the republic. As all strikes by Africans are illegal, the person organising such a strike must avoid arrest. I was chosen to be this person, and consequently I had to leave my home and family and my practice and go into hiding to avoid arrest.
The stay-at-home, in accordance with ANC policy, was to be a peaceful demonstration. Careful instructions were given to organisers and members to avoid any recourse to violence. The government's answer was to introduce new and harsher laws, to mobilise its armed forces, and to send saracens, armed vehicles, and soldiers into the townships in a massive show of force designed to intimidate the people. This was an indication that the government had decided to rule by force alone, and this decision was a milestone on the road to Umkhonto.
Some of this may appear irrelevant to this trial. In fact, I believe none of it is irrelevant because it will, I hope, enable the court to appreciate the attitude eventually adopted by the various persons and bodies concerned in the National Liberation Movement. When I went to jail in 1962, the dominant idea was that loss of life should be avoided. I now know that this was still so in 1963.
I must return to June 1961. What were we, the leaders of our people, to do? Were we to give in to the show of force and the implied threat against future action, or were we to fight it and, if so, how?
We had no doubt that we had to continue the fight. Anything else would have been abject surrender. Our problem was not whether to fight, but was how to continue the fight. We of the ANC had always stood for a non-racial democracy, and we shrank from any action which might drive the races further apart than they already were. But the hard facts were that fifty years of non-violence had brought the African people nothing but more and more repressive legislation, and fewer and fewer rights. It may not be easy for this court to understand, but it is a fact that for a long time the people had been talking of violence - of the day when they would fight the white man and win back their country - and we, the leaders of the ANC, had nevertheless always prevailed upon them to avoid violence and to pursue peaceful methods. When some of us discussed this in May and June of 1961, it could not be denied that our policy to achieve a non-racial state by non-violence had achieved nothing, and that our followers were beginning to lose confidence in this policy and were developing disturbing ideas of terrorism.
It must not be forgotten that by this time violence had, in fact, become a feature of the South African political scene. There had been violence in 1957 when the women of Zeerust were ordered to carry passes; there was violence in 1958 with the enforcement of cattle culling in Sekhukhuniland; there was violence in 1959 when the people of Cato Manor protested against pass raids; there was violence in 1960 when the government attempted to impose Bantu authorities in Pondoland. Thirty-nine Africans died in these disturbances. In 1961 there had been riots in Warmbaths, and all this time the Transkei had been a seething mass of unrest. Each disturbance pointed clearly to the inevitable growth among Africans of the belief that violence was the only way out - it showed that a government which uses force to maintain its rule teaches the oppressed to use force to oppose it. Already small groups had arisen in the urban areas and were spontaneously making plans for violent forms of political struggle. There now arose a danger that these groups would adopt terrorism against Africans, as well as whites, if not properly directed. Particularly disturbing was the type of violence engendered in places such as Zeerust, Sekhukhuniland, and Pondoland amongst Africans. It was increasingly taking the form, not of struggle against the government - though this is what prompted it - but of civil strife amongst themselves, conducted in such a way that it could not hope to achieve anything other than a loss of life and bitterness.
At the beginning of June 1961, after a long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I, and some colleagues, came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be unrealistic and wrong for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force.
This conclusion was not easily arrived at. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle, and to form Umkhonto we Sizwe. We did so not because we desired such a course, but solely because the government had left us with no other choice. In the Manifesto of Umkhonto published on 16 December 1961, which is exhibit AD, we said:
"The time comes in the life of any nation when there remain only two choices - submit or fight. That time has now come to South Africa. We shall not submit and we have no choice but to hit back by all means in our power in defence of our people, our future, and our freedom."
This was our feeling in June of 1961 when we decided to press for a change in the policy of the National Liberation Movement. I can only say that I felt morally obliged to do what I did...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/nelsonmandela1
Thanks, Landmark!
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Circusman
Special user
Kent, England.
555 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 02:59 pm
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Superb speech from President Obama !
Shaking hands too with Castro ? Ace sir, I salute you !
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alexander_may
Loyal user
South Africa
296 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 03:21 pm
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Destiny, as a South African, your words were the best I have heard in many, many years...
"Imagine if it had been Mugabe in 1994"
Everyone should take a moment and let that sink in.
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Ray Tupper.
Special user
NG16.
749 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 03:24 pm
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I found it quite interesting that Mandela wasn't removed from the
US terror list until 2008.
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes!
When do we want it?
C*nt!
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tommy
Eternal Order
Devil's Island
16543 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 05:49 pm
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy
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stoneunhinged
Inner circle
3067 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 06:08 pm
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Quote: On 2013-12-10 08:48, Destiny wrote:
...imagine if it had been Mugabe in 1994 instead of Mandela - his forgiveness and vision for a united future based on equality and decency was nothing short of majestic.
Brilliantly put, my friend. Nothing short of majestic.
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1129 Posts
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Posted: Dec 10, 2013 11:11 pm
0
Quote: On 2013-12-10 08:48, Destiny wrote:
Ironic that the best two speeches were Obama and Castro.
Mandela was the great man of his era - for all South Africa's problems, imagine if it had been Mugabe in 1994 instead of Mandela - his forgiveness and vision for a united future based on equality and decency was nothing short of majestic.
+ 1
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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General_Magician
Special user
United States
707 Posts
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Posted: Dec 11, 2013 05:05 am
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Quote: Regardless now of his earlier life, he did bring enemies together with his message of reconciliation. Even today at his funeral, look who will be sharing the stage... although they are placed far apart on the programme
Nobody is perfect. It seems Mandela changed SA for the better and had a positive impact on the rest of the world. May he rest in peace and my condolences to SA for the loss of Mandela. May he rest in peace.
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mastermindreader
1949 - 2017
Seattle, WA
12586 Posts
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Posted: Dec 11, 2013 05:14 am
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Have to agree with Destiny. Obama's and Castro's speeches were the best. And I was happy to see their unplanned handshake, despite the fact that some were outraged about it. It's about time we started to thaw out the relations between our countries. Maybe even in death, Mandela will have been a catalyst for peace and understanding.
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1129 Posts
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Posted: Dec 11, 2013 08:39 am
0
Quote: On 2013-12-11 00:14, mastermindreader wrote:
Have to agree with Destiny. Obama's and Castro's speeches were the best. And I was happy to see their unplanned handshake, despite the fact that some were outraged about it. It's about time we started to thaw out the relations between our countries. Maybe even in death, Mandela will have been a catalyst for peace and understanding.
+ 1
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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Magnus Eisengrim
Inner circle
Sulla placed heads on
1053 Posts
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Posted: Dec 11, 2013 07:15 pm
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“Habits die hard and they leave their unmistakable marks, the invisible scars that are engraved in our bones and that flow in our blood, that do havoc to the principal actors beyond repair.... Such scars portray people as they are and bring out into the full glare of public scrutiny the embarrassing contradictions in which individuals live out their lives.
“We are told that a saint is a sinner who keeps on trying to be clean. One may be a villain for three-quarters of his life and be canonized because he lived a holy life for the remaining quarter of that life.
“In real life we deal, not with gods, but with ordinary humans like ourselves: men and women who are full of contradictions, who are stable and fickle, strong and weak, famous and infamous, people in whose bloodstream the muckworm battles daily with potent pesticides.”
--Nelson Mandela Conversations with Myself
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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