I just spent an absolutely painful hour or so slogging through some of the discussion board on the Penguin Magic website.

The lack of respect for the English language on that board was appalling. Granted, there is some of that here at the Café, but not near the level of the Blaine wanna-be's over there, thank goodness. (This is not to bash Penguin's discussion board in any way, just some of the people on it!!!)

I'm not talking about an occasional mis-spelled word, a typo, a person who is typing too fast, or a non-English speaking person who is doing a wonderful job of trying to communicate with us in their second, third, or fourth language. I'm talking about general education English.

In the Restaurant workers forum at that site, there were a number of people asking for advice on getting restaurant jobs that could not even spell the word "restaurant" (I thought about misspelling it here as a joke, but that would defeat the purpose of this topic)!!

My question is...How can these people ever hope to entertain a spectator if they can't even speak or write the English language?

Part of being a performer is to engage and entertain the audience through/using/with magic. The performer is the entertainment. The magic is their chosen medium. No matter where you perform, quite a few of your spectators will be fairly intelligent. Some of them will even be very intelligent.

So where does that leave these poor kids...at least I hope and pray that they are kids. How can you ever hope to entertain an educated audience if you can not relate to them enough to engage them in the performance?

No matter how well you perform your magical effects, if you can not engage me in that performance I will not enjoy it. If you can not communicate properly, whether speaking or in writing, then you had better give up hope of ever being an entertainer, much less a magician.

Anyone else have any thoughts/comments/criticisms/etc.?

Thanks U much 4 your patience wit dis long topic.

I share in your frustration and have for a good number of years (before getting into our little hobby/obsession).

Having been out of high school only a few scant years, my general perception during that time was the proper knowledge and use of our language has been turned into a sort of weakness. I am obviously not qualified to comment on other generational experiences in school, as I only know what I went through and saw, but we seem to have a youth-oriented pop-culture that, honestly, constantly destroys the English language on television, on the radio, in magazines, etc. If those being emulated do not speak properly, it is difficult to believe that those doing the emulation will...

I believe you are correct and that many of these people will be out of luck when the time comes to perform for an audience of reasonable intelligence, negotiate the terms of a gig, etc. We can hope that their idiocy will not tarnish the overall reputation of all magical performers...

E

I understand your concerns about the Penguin Magic boards. There are a few people who typed out reviews in one long run-on sentence, using only ellipses to seperate thoughts. Some other people asked them to break it up into paragraph form and, well, that suggestion was not received very positively.

A lot of them are kids, however, including some of the moderators, iirc.

On the other hand, this isn't endemic to the Penguin boards; it's fairly commonplace online in general. Go to any random blog or message board, and I can almost guarantee you'll run into stuff as bad or worse. In fact, just about the only message board site I know of where you *won't* run into it is one for writers. There, even while chatting, they use complete sentences and proper grammar.

One thing to remember, though. Just because they *type* in improper grammar and spelling, doesn't mean that they can't speak well. I used to work with a person whose spelling and grammar was worse than anything on Penguin. Listening to him speak, though, you couldn't tell at all that he couldn't write worth anything.

Also keep in mind that public schools today are not what they used to be. This is in general; there certainly are some great schools still. The majority, however, from what I've seen and heard, are not so great. They'll pass kids who can't read or write above a fourth grade level. Not only that, but they'll let them into college, too.

It's not all the kids' fault, it's not all the schools' fault, and it's not all the parents' fault. It's a combination of everything, I think. The kids being lazy, the schools not teaching, and the parents not making sure their kids are being taught.

As far as the kids being out of luck when it comes time to get gigs, etc., well ... a lot of the supervisors and managers at my previous job couldn't spell or write too well either. They weren't quite as bad as the kids we're talking about, but they were bad enough. The point is, they can get a job where writing isn't an issue.

And magic is certainly a job where having an excellent command of written English is not crucial. As long as you can entertain, you're good to go.

I just hope they invest in a good proofreader should they ever decide to publish anything. Proofreaders can work wonders.

There are those who will say something to the effect that "what does it matter as long as you get your idea across."

Well, it matters a great deal.

Spending a few decades in the newspaper business, there was a dictum that said, basically:

Be accurate and correct when talking about things other people know about; otherwise, why should they believe you when you tell them about things that they DON'T know about?

Houdini was, like so many performers of his day, basically self-taught and would make errors in words and grammar (much like many of the great magicians -- Leipzig, Blackstone Sr., etc.).

At one time, he was corrected after a show by a newspaperman. Later, Houdini wrote to another magician, praising the idea of having a journalist correct his speech: His argument was, basically, that he was getting this wonderful advice for free.

Needless to say, Houdini was bright enough to act on the advice, too. (Once corrected, he rarely made the same mistake again.)

We are so concernced about how we dress, what the latest moves are, how much to charge, etc. And yet, when our performances generally hang on what we say, we mostly ignore that critical part of our shows -- the language.

Well, ignore it at your peril!

I have stopped reading the Penguin boards for that reason, not only the spelling and grammar, but the level of much of the discussion leaves a lot to be desired.

What to do about the general decline in English? I don't know and I'm a school teacher. For my part I don't accept work that contains poor spelling, poor grammar or badly reasoned arguments, and I teach mainly science and computing. I'll send work back to have the student fix it up. I also don't accept emails and computer work with those stupid abbreviations.

As a teacher I'm used to correcting kids, that's part of the job, so I find it easy to point them in the right direction. Try doing that too, if you think you can get away with it, and lean on any teachers you know to make sure they are doing the same.

David.

One of the things that I think might improve the situation (in magic, at least) is the recent emergence of the 'linguistic' approach to our art, seen in the work of people like Knepper, Banachek, and Jermay.

Of course, wise performers have always known that words can be wands. But it does us no harm to be reminded of this every now and again.

Regards,

Caleb Strange.

As a high school senior, I can tell you that our America's public schools are pretty bad. Many people in my classes (when I was in public school) could not read. I mean it; in first grade they were reading at the same level. Even the girls who were neat, organized, and always got straight A's whined and moaned because though they could read, for some reason they could not retain anything of what they had read. It is a sad state of affairs my friends, and one of the reasons I have continually said I hold little hope for new magicians, at least in the youth of America. A small portion of my classmates and I passed our High School EXIT Exam in our first year of High school. My father asked me if that meant I no longer needed to attend school, as obviously I knew everything required to complete school. Unfortunately, I told him, they give the test every year to those who have not passed to make sure that they pass before they graduate. In California at least, this is the way they operate. If not enough students are passing a test, THEY LOWER THE STANDARDS.

The reason behind all this, at least in my mind, is the complete lack of reading in America! In my friends houses I saw few if any books! Not even their parents read. Only by reading, reading for fun, for studying, whatever you can. Not just **** books either, but classics! And, this doesn't mean you have to be some nerd in your room reading all *** day! I find time to party just as hard (or harder) than my peers, have far too many hobbies, and three sources of income, and yet I read! It's not that hard or time consuming, but it opens new worlds, and improves grammar/spelling/education in general, etc.

In closing I will say this is the internet, and certainly I'm sure I've made mistakes, lol, as well as of course IMHO using this stupid netspeak thing, lmao!

I think of myself as a true magician, a wizard of sorts, and in my mind I know the importance of being well educated about the world around me and how I can best communicate with it.

This is my conscious decision to raise the standard not only for the art of magic, my presentations, but a standard to living. Finding the human potential.

When we present ourselves in front of audiences we are examples to the world. May we present ourselves in a manner that is warm, clear, insightful, and well educated. Enjoy your magic enjoy the world.

Steve Hart
Cape Canaveral, FL USA

In our society we give lip service to the "three Rs."

Then some insist on saying these are reading, writing and arithmetic.

Going back the the liberalis, we might want to consider reading, reasoning and rhetoric.

I used to play with our double-think by asking people, "What sort of government do we have?", then ask them to recite our pledge of allegiance, then ask the same question again. The answer would be 'democracy' both times.

The use of a special interst BBS for 'tagging' and 'chiming in' seems a bit less than cogent and respectful.

I wonder if we have members here who are trying to take the path of e.e. cummins and the dada-bauhaus folks?

I still bang my head against the wall on this when I find it. And that's really what it feels like.

Shortcut English has been around as long as I've been around, and (I hope) longer than that. That it's become form and fashion today is troubling to me, as well.

I can almost handle "4" and "U" instead of "for" and "you" -- almost -- but the mindset of sloppy, lazy, illiteracy drives me bonkers. It's an attitude that says, "I don't care" and that's always bad. It truly points to a lifestyle of laziness, plain and simple.

People do judge you by the words you use, as they say in the Achievment Dynamics commercials. It's the banner you wave before you that begins building a level of respect for what you have to say. I suppose the problem is the people in whom many of them wish to have respect don't value that aspect of behavior any more than the speaker.

And, while I'm at it, misuse, of punctuation is, another thing, that, drives me, to the funny. Farm.

Wow. That was cathartic.

I'd say it's youthful behavior that will correct itself with maturity into adulthood but, as we've all seen, some adults are just as bad as kids.

It'd be enough to make me pull my hair out, if I had any to pull out, that is.





I believe there's a special seating area in hell for that sort of thing.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

A few more video generations and the written word will go by the wayside.

A big part of the reason for these youngsters/people to not read is the public school system. The educators forget we have a generation of kids who have not read a whole book in their lives. Then when the child goes to high school, they think an appropriate book would be HOUSE OF THE SEVEN GABLES or THE SCARLET LETTER. Both classics, but nearly impossible to read if you've never truly enjoyed another book, I know my kids (to my extreme dismay) were completely put off by reading when they were in high school. It took me years to show them there is treasure to be found in books.

Most of the kids I interact with on a daily basis show very little interest in their school assigned books. This must be addressed by the school systems. The books we (adults) were exposed to as students will not suffice for this Spielberg generation. Teachers need to find "sound bite" books fast action and quick outcomes to start these kids on - then work their way up to Orwell, Dickens,Hawthorne and Shakespeare.

Speaking of soapboxes

Dave

I've not visited the Penguin site

I don't need to visit the Penguin site - This one is enough to encourage self mutilation.

George Carlin has always been one of my inspirations. I don't always agree with his ideas, but I love the way he says them. If anyone gets a chance to see him interviewed on the "40 years in Comedy" special that airs on HBO from time to time, he gives brilliant insight on how to use language to entertain - how to change the expression of your voice, your tone, and to use the very words you chose as notes and percussion as if each line you speak were creating melody - and that melody is what truly communicates your ideas.

As Magicians, we have the rare opportunity usually afforded only to Presidents or men of the cloth - to stand up in front of a group of people and say whatever we want, however we want. It is ultimately their judgment that will allow us to succeed or fail in our craft, and therefore we should be craftsmen of the language as it is more integral to our art form than to most others. The true illusion exists in the collective minds of our kind audience members, and if their intellect is our canvas, we had better be very careful with our paints.

--- The preceding message was written by 1000 monkeys on 1000 typewriters ---

Hi,
I am sure that it does come down to a kind of laziness. I am very guilty of it myself; my punctuation and grammar has always been poor/terrible as is my handwriting. Possibly the poor handwriting is the stem of my punctuation and spelling problems. I simply cannot write as fast as I think (I am not a slow writer), but if I think too much about what I am writing, I lose what I want to say. I can spell if I need to; very few people beat me at Scrabble, for example and I have written for several magic publications and I was paid by the local newspaper to write articles for 2 -3 years. I do not think that my poor grammar/spelling/handwriting has been any major disadvantage to me and certainly has not held me back with regards verbal communication in performance.

As a final note I might add that I am a avid reader and prefer to learn from books than video/DVD. I suppose the truth is I am lazy when it comes to the written word... but then let those without faults please raise your hands now.
Phillip

I don't see how you can expect a decent school system when your town is under constant Orc attack!

--Chris

John LeBlanc writes: "I believe there's a special seating area in hell for (Shortcut English)".

I certainly hope so!

And it's not something confined to one country or another. Here in Canada, I was speaking to the head of a school of journalism (post-secondary) and he complained that, of a three-year course, the first two years are spent teaching remedial English.

I asked him why anyone would want to get into journalism if they couldn't read or write and he said simply that the students didn't know they couldn't; they'd been passed from one grade to the next by teachers who were too lazy or unmotivated or couldn't be bothered to correct what they saw as someone else's problem!

Add to that a couple of generations raised on television, videos, DVDs, etc., and the root of the problem becomes pretty obvious.

For example, musician Frank Zappa described most rock journalism as "people who can't write, interviewing people who can't talk, for people who can't read."

Sigh!

cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com

Christopher, it is indeed ever more difficult to learn to speak English well under the growing shadow of Mordor...

I work as a software engineer (magic is a hobby), and I do a lot of interviews of college recruits. I put a lot of emphasis on how well people can clearly express their thoughts, both written and verbally. It amazes me how some people treat the English language, then expect to be hired at a major company. I've had to do presentations in front of hundreds of people, and I've learned how important your presence and presentation is. (This has really helped my magic performences, BTW.)

I think part of it is arrogance, in that they believe they can act/speak however they want to "express their individuality" and you're the one who has to accept them for who they are. It's the same thing with the tattoos, piercings, haircuts, etc. As someone doing interviews in a professional environment, I can tell you that these things are not seen in a positive light.

I, too, have stopped going to the Penguin boards, and it's too bad. There's several people over there who can be very helpful, and very well-spoken, even if they are young.

I don't really know what to do about it, except that 1) I make sure my kids learn to speak and write and present themselves well, and 2) if I'm ever asked, I'm sure to point out to people that if you look at the most successful people in almost any industry, then can present themselves very well.

Eric.

While growing up, early on my daughter realized that if she butchered the English language she'd be asked to repeat herself. If she spoke too fast, she'd be asked to repeat herself. Eventually, she'd catch herself in mid-sentence, stop, and start over.

Today, as an adult and mother, those lessons are not only being remembered, it's clear they'll live on in another generation.

While my daughter may have ignored a lot of what I told her (as we all did our silly, idiotic, know-nothing fathers ) she's very clear on the fact that people instantly judge you by how well you speak.




Sometimes, I don't wait to be asked. Most of the time these days I deal with shortcut English the way I did it with my daughter; I ask them to repeat themselves because their meaning isn't clear. If it's done in a way that's not viewed as belittling, the point is made and, hopefully, something sticks to the wall.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX

This has been an eye-opener for me. I usually just write what comes into my head without much thought of what ends up as the final product. I think I will start putting a little more effort into the posts I make. I do all right with spelling most of the time, but a lot of my punctuation is guesswork!.,:

It's good to be among those who make me want to do better.

Thanks
Happy New Year
Nick Zender

"...she's very clear on the fact that people instantly judge you by how well you speak."

That may be true, but it really shouldn't be, in my opinion. I stutter, so if I'm judged by my speaking prowess, sometimes that means I'm misjudged. Yeah, that happens to everyone, to an extent, but it gets annoying sometimes.

When I'm doing an act, I don't stutter. It's a little weird, actually. In my casual speech, I stutter with varying degrees of intensity, but if I'm on stage performing, or performing up close, or ... I don't stutter.

As an example of that, I was at my local magic club's holiday meeting yesterday and performed Jiggernaut for a couple people. I went through all the patter smoothly, with no false starts or stutters. As soon as I was done, though, I was back to stuttering.

Stuttering is a very weird affliction to have, and many stutterers withdraw and end up not speaking unless they absolutely have to. Then you have those that don't let their stuttering stop them, like Winston Churchill and many other famous figures.

All that said, I still agree that you should be able to present yourself as well as you can. Even if you stutter, you can present yourself well enough to stand out against non-stutterers who have no idea about presenting themselves.

Since people *will* judge you by how well you speak, how well you write, how good you look, etc., if you want a job or you want to just make a good impression, it behooves you to speak and write to the best of your ability. And if you can't do either very well, there are places you can go to learn to do it better. Toastmasters, for one, can help you speak better. Get a writing tutor who can correct your grammar and spelling. Or even just go out and get a good book on the subject.