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Doomo
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Well I am going to bring this up...AGAIN... I have mentioned several times before that so many magic demo vids are VERY deceptive. In a BAD way. And I have gotten raked over the coals for it. But here I go again

They say as an excuse- "It is necessary, They are showing it from the spectators point of view! ETC... " And as I have stated before. If you cant show a honest no cut video demo from a spectators point of view. Then maybe the item is not really ready. This happens all the time. And the same arguments are brought up... And afterwards... Everyone is cranky about the deceptive vids. RED is only the latest example. After I post this people will chime in with the same old excuses. And other people will get ripped off and the same people will cry about the deceptive vids... I have tried with all my products to show everything with no cuts or edits. I don't want people to feel that they are getting deceived... In a bad way. Maybe if we just stopped buying things that are just out to rip us off with tricky demos people will get the idea. But it starts with YOU the customer.

Tony
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John C
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Agree.
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boinko
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Agree -- 100%.

The excuse is always "well, if you rewind the video enough times, you'll see the 'move' -- even if it's from the spectator's POV."

If that's the case, then perhaps it's better to have no video at all?

I like RED, but I was confused by what I saw on (and expected from) the video -- and then what I came to understand was the actual effect. Nevermind the similarities to NWP (which disappointed me after the fact -- but I didn't know that when I bought it.)
RNK
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Agree +3
Jack Straw
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Agree +4.

Magicians that produce effects should pay attention here.

I think we are all fed up with it. I know that I am!
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
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msukairi
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Agree here as well

Easy way to Fool magician is to give him video with cut
Bill Hegbli
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So you really feel that they should put out of works, creative film maker, graphic artist, editors, cameraman, and the like. We have to employ these people as a video is suppose to be a movie and match the movie industry in production and excitement. Thus putting out over inflated card tricks with a DVD. The dealers demand this quality, or they will not accept the product to sell.

Fantasio said the reason he could not make a totally deceptive Vanishing and Appearing cane is that dealer would not buy anything but the shiny canes. So he sold a few at magic conventions, but none of them hit the magic stores. Blame Murphy's Magic and other wholesalers who demand the very best in production quality.

There as always been some tricks that could not be filmed without a cut away, or reaching out of screen fames. That does not mean they are not good tricks, but are for live performance only.

The problem with Red, is that they not only cut it to death, they shut off the sound of the instructions and did not show any of the performance requirements. I would never buy a trick that the performer had to turn his back the spectators. Just me, as I don't trust people to do what they are suppose to and follow instructions.

Actually, this "new industry" has very little to with magic, but it uses the disguise of magic themes. The current industry is really part of the Hula Hoop and Yo Yo industry, flooding the market to make a profit. It is much like the old saying Magic Master's use to say when someone would ask them about a trick they did not sell. They would say, "Oh, you want a 'real' magic shop."

Penguin and others are going through magic books and publishing them on DVD and video download, just to make a more money selling one trick at time. I have noted in their defense, they have added something to the trick, but did not give the original inventor credit at all.

Nothing will happen until people stop buying poorly advertised magic tricks. I read it in the forums frequently, people hype a products, even bad reviews, they just have to see for themselves and buy the trick. It really does not matter why, it is the fact they got your money, and you got a piece of junk. Some even justify their purchase by saying, "I will sell it on the Café". I guess they are so rich, that they can afford to sell a $40 for next to nothing. Just think, wouldn't it be more beneficial to buy a trick that you can actually make someone feel a little better by showing a good trick to them.
a brown 1968
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All effects should have a demo is a rule I can't agree with .

That all effects sold provide sufficient information be it a demo or written statements to allow a potential buyer to make an informed decision I can agree to.

Andrew
IAIN
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So even though we KNOW people endlessly watch demos to try and re-engineer it, you guys think its ok?! seriously?

after about 3 years worth of study and performing, I reckon people will have more than a clue on how most things work... lets not pretend otherwise...

Doomo - for example, I could see how your peek wallet worked after seeing the threads about it... I think I saw the vid three times in total as I decided whether I should buy one... lucky for you I am not a leather worker!

look on youtube, there's lots of kids posting up vids of how they think a trick is done...most are saying "after watching the vids countless times, this is how I think its done...dont blame me if its the exact same method!"

a demo that is available to everyone should be a clear and clean demo seen from the perspective of the audience..and with enough cover to protect the secret... then its down to the advertising blurb to fill in some more of the detail...
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Jack Straw
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Quote:
On 2014-01-06 13:02, IAIN wrote:
a demo that is available to everyone should be a clear and clean demo seen from the perspective of the audience..and with enough cover to protect the secret... then its down to the advertising blurb to fill in some more of the detail...


But don't lie in the advertising blurb.

This has been done countless times.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
RNK
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Quote:
On 2014-01-06 13:02, IAIN wrote:
So even though we KNOW people endlessly watch demos to try and re-engineer it, you guys think its ok?! seriously?

after about 3 years worth of study and performing, I reckon people will have more than a clue on how most things work... lets not pretend otherwise...

Doomo - for example, I could see how your peek wallet worked after seeing the threads about it... I think I saw the vid three times in total as I decided whether I should buy one... lucky for you I am not a leather worker!

look on youtube, there's lots of kids posting up vids of how they think a trick is done...most are saying "after watching the vids countless times, this is how I think its done...dont blame me if its the exact same method!"

a demo that is available to everyone should be a clear and clean demo seen from the perspective of the audience..and with enough cover to protect the secret... then its down to the advertising blurb to fill in some more of the detail...


So you are saying Iain that if you were a leather worker you would rip off Tony's wallet? Hmmm...

Second, you state, "a demo that is available to everyone should be a clear and clean demo seen from the perspective of the audience..and with enough cover to protect the secret... then its down to the advertising blurb to fill in some more of the detail..."

This still does not happen with demo's and advertising blurbs. Though, I do see your point about the secret (method) of the trick being exposed with a full demo. But as a whole picture, I feel more misleading demos are put out there than true, honest demo's. This is where the problem lies. The creator is basically in a "Catch 22' situation.

RNK
IAIN
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Well of course I wouldnt rip off tony, what sort of thing is that to say?!

I WAS PROVING A POINT AS TO WHY YOU DON'T ALWAYS MAKE A FULL ON DEMO

I just think we ask too much at times, we've got to move away from this spoon-feeding that's going on with magic...protect your secretss... you can still be fair with the demo, and in what you are selling...but at the same time - c'mon now... I don't have to say it, do i?

as for RED, not seen the original nor RED really - apparently it is identical...but bob king is taking it up, and dealing with it...you can vote with your wallet, and pretty much that's the most potent thing you can do collectively...

I bought tony's wallet by the way...
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lord_wallmotto
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Quote:
On 2014-01-06 13:21, IAIN wrote:

I just think we ask too much at times, we've got to move away from this spoon-feeding that's going on with magic...protect your secretss... you can still be fair with the demo, and in what you are selling...but at the same time - c'mon now... I don't have to say it, do i?



I do not think that we ask for too much. Most people are just asking for the ads and demos to be more honest. The problem with most not all but most magic demos today is that they are not edited just in such a way that it hides the secret but they are edited in a way to make the effect look way way stronger than it actually is.
Mark_Chandaue
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I agree with Andy and Iain. A demo should protect the secret, however it should not use cuts and edits to completely misrepresent the effect. If an effect can't be fairly represented on video without a knowledgable magician being able to reverse engineer it then a detailed and accurate description should be provided. There are some effects where a cut is needed on video. Blizzard would struggle without a cutaway at the critical moment on video but in a real world performance even magicians don't see the thing you do right under their noses. As such, the cutaway at the critical moment does give an accurate representation of what the spectator sees.

Mark
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RNK
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Quote:
On 2014-01-06 13:28, lord_wallmotto wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-01-06 13:21, IAIN wrote:

I just think we ask too much at times, we've got to move away from this spoon-feeding that's going on with magic...protect your secretss... you can still be fair with the demo, and in what you are selling...but at the same time - c'mon now... I don't have to say it, do i?



I do not think that we ask for too much. Most people are just asking for the ads and demos to be more honest. The problem with most not all but most magic demos today is that they are not edited just in such a way that it hides the secret but they are edited in a way to make the effect look way way stronger than it actually is.


Very well stated!
Doomo
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Quote:
On 2014-01-06 13:02, IAIN wrote:
So even though we KNOW people endlessly watch demos to try and re-engineer it, you guys think its ok?! seriously?

after about 3 years worth of study and performing, I reckon people will have more than a clue on how most things work... lets not pretend otherwise...

Doomo - for example, I could see how your peek wallet worked after seeing the threads about it... I think I saw the vid three times in total as I decided whether I should buy one... lucky for you I am not a leather worker!

look on youtube, there's lots of kids posting up vids of how they think a trick is done...most are saying "after watching the vids countless times, this is how I think its done...dont blame me if its the exact same method!"

a demo that is available to everyone should be a clear and clean demo seen from the perspective of the audience..and with enough cover to protect the secret... then its down to the advertising blurb to fill in some more of the detail...


Hello IAIN. I realize that there are people who endlessly rewatch demos trying to figure it out. He ll , I go to conventions and I will have people watch me demo repeatedly for the same reason. That has ALWAYS been the way it is. I am in a better situation than others. As my products require a actual product to do what is done, not simply a procedure. The explanation vids do little good without the actual products in my case. Well except for the knockoffs but that is a totally different worry. Most of us here are experienced enough to know that we are buying anothers thoughts and expertise. But if you feel that that thought and expertise will NOT stand up to scrutiny then perhaps it should not be displayed publicly. For example. WOW by Masuda is obviously just what it appears to be. It is demonstrated openly. It does no harm as most cannot make their own. So it can be shown openly. But most effects that require a cut away do so for a specific reason. Deck Switch for example. Just say... This effect will end clean... BUT ONLY if you do a deck switch... That is just not right. The examples go on. It is like the definition of pornography by Justice Stewart. I cant define it but I know it when I see it. I know when a demo is "wrong".

It is a case by case basis. Obviously. But most cases are pretty obvious.
If you ever get to a point where words have no meaning, you're probably talking to a dog.

Remember! More Bang For LESS Bucks! It is the right way!

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Jack Straw
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If there were car advertisements that stated things like:

"Prices starting at $1,995!"

"Forty miles to a gallon!"

"Lifetime free maintenance!"

But then it turned out that

"Prices starting at $1,995!" was only for the chassis.

"Fifty miles to a gallon!" was only for the chassis.

"Lifetime free maintenance!" was only for the chassis.

You can bet that the FTC or some other government agency would swoop in and fine them up the wazoo.

But they won't come and help us here for deceptive advertising.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
IAIN
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Some of you guys are kinda proving my point!

of course there's a need to cut away or focus the attention during a demo...a live demo person to person is completely different, cos there's no rewinding allowed and we fall for the same as the punters!

and I'm not saying "tough!" either...just saying some people ask for too much..."hey! you didn't tell me this effect was reliant on a deck switch - no fair!"... well it is fair - you personally might not be able to deck switch, or not have the resources to learn one (or the patience) - but if its taught on the dvd or is in the booklet, then you can't cry foul...and nor should the effect have to say "a deck switch is involved" - because then people can add that bit of knowledge in with watching the vid/demo and work out WHEN it happens...

its magic and mentalism, secrets need to be kept...

just because an effect uses a method you might not like - doesn't make it a bad effect, or badly advertised...when people expect it to say "deck switch" then THAT is the spoon-feeding I'm on about...and a lot of people expect to be spoon fed...just look at some of the posts made on forums such as these...

a fair demo should show you what the effect looks like for the audience, and then the blurb should describe the techniques involved loosely (by that I mean "sleight of hands required and all taught on dvd") and should be allowed to omit anything that might lead you onto being able to guess, and/or cross-reference it with the vid to work out the secret(s) involved...
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Kozmo
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My recommendation is do real research before you buy an item.

Oh by the way I have something I have been working on for 20 years called "The Jar" Its KILLER! theres not a shot in hell I will show entire routines of this item in a trailer......NO WAY. People will just watch it over and over. Sometimes the great thing isn't in how the item works but the idea of how the performer present it....

I will always try to give people a fair deal with real info of what an item is. But I will also do everything I can to protect that item
Doomo
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Quote:
On 2014-01-06 15:27, IAIN wrote:
Some of you guys are kinda proving my point!

of course there's a need to cut away or focus the attention during a demo...a live demo person to person is completely different, cos there's no rewinding allowed and we fall for the same as the punters!

and I'm not saying "tough!" either...just saying some people ask for too much..."hey! you didn't tell me this effect was reliant on a deck switch - no fair!"... well it is fair - you personally might not be able to deck switch, or not have the resources to learn one (or the patience) - but if its taught on the dvd or is in the booklet, then you can't cry foul...and nor should the effect have to say "a deck switch is involved" - because then people can add that bit of knowledge in with watching the vid/demo and work out WHEN it happens...

its magic and mentalism, secrets need to be kept...

just because an effect uses a method you might not like - doesn't make it a bad effect, or badly advertised...when people expect it to say "deck switch" then THAT is the spoon-feeding I'm on about...and a lot of people expect to be spoon fed...just look at some of the posts made on forums such as these...

a fair demo should show you what the effect looks like for the audience, and then the blurb should describe the techniques involved loosely (by that I mean "sleight of hands required and all taught on dvd") and should be allowed to omit anything that might lead you onto being able to guess, and/or cross-reference it with the vid to work out the secret(s) involved...


That last paragraph is the important one.

a fair demo should show you what the effect looks like for the audience, and then the blurb should describe the techniques involved loosely (by that I mean "sleight of hands required and all taught on dvd") and should be allowed to omit anything that might lead you onto being able to guess, and/or cross-reference it with the vid to work out the secret(s) involved...

But lets be honest. As simple as that is... Most wont do it. I am not saying a deck switch is a bad thing. I have developed 8 or 9 of them myself. But I would be certain to let you know an effect I sold required one. I would not point it out... But to be fair I would tell you.
If you ever get to a point where words have no meaning, you're probably talking to a dog.

Remember! More Bang For LESS Bucks! It is the right way!

www.rfaproductions.com
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