But I do have explicit permission from Tenyo to explain quite a few tricks in the book. But you wouldn't know that.

And I know for a fact that Tenyo has never given ANY person permission to give a lecture and explain the secrets of their tricks. But you wouldn't know that, either.

So do me a favor cyberdave03: comment only on things you actually know about.

Leave it to you to shift the focus away from your breach of etiquette to a nonexistant problem with "permissions".
And I know for a fact that Tenyo has never given ANY person permission to give a lecture and explain the secrets of their tricks. But you wouldn't know that, either. Really?! That's my point, explicitly stated above. I do know that, WE ALL KNOW THAT. "Don't reveal the secret" is included with virtually every Tenyo trick instruction (never mind the golden rule of magic). So it's totally unnecessary, and a little insulting, to admonish another Tenyo magician not to reveal Tenyo secrets when they never even suggested, let alone stated, that they would - particularly on this forum.

But I do have explicit permission from Tenyo to explain quite a few tricks in the book.
How many is "quite a few"? If it's more than 10, and especially if it involves tricks released beyond the first 10 years, then frankly, I'm stunned. Tenyo is (rightfully) so insistent on the buyers strictly keeping the workings of the tricks secret, then allows you to publish a majority of those secrets in a book? In this age of digitalization and home scanning, there's a good chance those secrets would eventually end up on the internet, and anyone watching the numerous Youtube Tenyo demos (or live performances) would need only then turn to Google to find out how they're done. What good is a trick if everyone knows, or can easily find out, how it's done? If Tenyo does allow you to reveal the workings of "quite a few" of their tricks, then quite frankly, it would feel like a betrayal, and I would strongly reconsider my position on currently owning or buying any more Tenyo.

My assumption given the potential cost of the Tenyo book is that it will predominately be purchased by serious Tenyo fans and collectors, which should mitigate the risk you suggested Dave. To be honest if someone wanted to scan and post instructions now, nothing is stopping them, other than a sense of right and wrong. Given that Tenyo is all about clever methods not sure you could write a comprehensive book without at least some reference to methods.

"Predominantly" is the operative word. Tenyo and Richard can't possibly control where all the books would eventually end up.
What's stopping people from scanning and posting instructions on a mass basis now is that you have to own the trick to get the instructions, and the only people owning that many tricks are Tenyo collectors and afficionados, who would be shooting themselves in the foot to do so.

I hear you Dave. For me the risk versus reward in this case is definitely in the reward camp. A big comprehensive book on Tenyo is amazing and I think ultimately will bring more attention to Tenyo and attract more collectors. I would not want the possible negative actions of a few to stop what I believe will be a great resource for Tenyo fans/collectors for years to come. I understand you have a different opinion and that's cool.

John

The book will be expensive and thus not available to just anyone to get their hands on it. You can spend far less money buying cheap tenyo in ebay and scan instructions for the internet. Shouldn't that be more of a concern than it being done from Richard's book? Also the more one spends on a magic product or book, the less likely they will share the secret because of their investment. Complete opposite for cheaper items.

I really think there is nothing to worry about in terms of tricks being revealed in the book. Also Cyberdave if you feel you will reconsider your purchasing of Tenyo tricks because some are revealed in a book, where will you draw the line? Will you stop buying any trick because they will be revealed on youtube or forums? Will you stop performing a trick because it can be found in a book? Gaetan Bloom revealed some of his marketed tricks in his book. Would that stop you buying more of his tricks? Just curious.

JM: A book about Tenyo sounds wonderful. History of the company, detailed biographies of the inventors, with interviews, in depth stories on the tricks' development? Great. Expose the workings to "quite a few" of the tricks, whose secrets have been closely guarded for decades? Horrible idea. Though if that comes to pass, I'm sure many Tenyophiles will be drooling to get their hands on one to find out how all those tricks that they don't own but have been dying to find out are done.

Angelo: So, Bill Scape posts that he will be giving a lecture on Tenyo, with no mention of exposure, but Richard jumps in to warn him not to reveal how any are done, even to his small insignificant audience - and you post your wholehearted support of that, twice. But Richard then posts that he has permission to reveal the workings of quite a few Tenyo tricks in his book, which if done could reach hundreds, and later potentially thousands of people, and your response to that is, "Not a problem"? Hmmm. Perhaps those exposed tricks might include Floating Card, Prison Box, or Mini morphosis. That might make you famous

The book will be expensive and thus not available to just anyone to get their hands on it. Well, that brings up the issue of how his book is being published then. If it's through a commercial publisher, than the expense is not a deterrent. I've bought professional books on eBay for $15 that originally sold for 10 times that. If he's self publishing, then that would mitigate the "threat" so to speak, because the sales probably wouldn't go much beyond the members of this forum.

As for my position on Tenyo, it's not just about the actual exposure. People exposing the secrets to the Tenyo tricks on Youtube are doing so illicitly, strictly against Tenyo's policy, and magic in general. But in buying Tenyo tricks, whose effects are very much dependent on the mystery, I trusted that the very company that invented them, and stresses strict secrecy in each of their instructions, wouldn't then violate that agreement and allow the workings of a majority of those tricks (assuming that's what "quite a few" means, exaggeration may be at play) to be revealed to the public in a book. That just doesn't seem right.

Dave, you have NO idea what you're talking about. You're just making dumb assumptions and ranting. If you're trying to please the John Mazza crowd, perhaps you're having fun and doing a good job. Otherwise you just sound ignorant.

Dave are you concerned with Magic books in general or just the Tenyo book? There have been many volumes published on magic inventors/producers outlining thier effects and in many cases methods of commercially released effects. A few would include Harbin, Anverdi, Babcock, Thayer, P&L, Supreme Magic (4 volumes), Himber, Berg, Kline, Duscheck,etc, etc. I own and treasure many of those books and have always seen it as a great way to record magic history for future generations.

Cyberdave there is a difference in what you say about disagreeing with exposing in lecture but ok in Tenyo book. In the Tenyo lecture where my Prison Box is exposed, the magicians watching do not all have a dedicated interest in Tenyo. Some do, some don't. I believe the lecture was given at a major huge convention where a lot of the audience probably had a mild interest in Tenyo or had nothing else on the program to see or go to every lecture to get their moneysworth. Therefore, I disagree with exposing in a lecture because you can't guarantee those that are watching are true Tenyo fans, have bought Tenyo and invested their time and money into Tenyo.

In Richard's book it is the complete opposite. The book is an expensive purchase - expensive enough to deter non Tenyo fans from purchasing but not from dedicated fans. They have made a large investment. I am happy for my tricks to be exposed (if indeed they are) in the book because of this commitment to purchase/dedication to Tenyo. Its not as if you can make the majority of Tenyo effects anyway once you know the secret because of the way they are made.

I doubt any magician who buys the book from Richard, gets tired of it years later and sells it on eBay would sell it at such a loss. If anything they will be collectable and increase in value. The idea of ebay is to make money not lose money you know You have nothing to worry about.

You are also worried about the tricks being exposed to the public in a book. Do you really believe the average Joe - magician or not will spend a few hundred dollars on a book to find out how some plastic tricks work? Really? Again, only dedicated fans of Tenyo would be prepared to spend that sort of money. Again, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

Do you see?

Sorry Dave, but I really don't see a problem in a book which reveals Tenyo tricks. I mean, it has been done before so many times and there's nothing wrong with it IF the inventor of the tricks/company agrees. It will also increase the interest in the tricks because they're not exactly easy to copy for the most part.
And only (very) serious collectors will buy those books so I don't think there will be a problem with suddenly everyone knowing how these items work.



Come on Richard, drop it already please ... .

Why should I drop it? You don't think that people tell me about the utterly false and ignorant remarks made about me on JM's Tenyo website?

Addressing the other issue here, for some reason this discussion has evolved into giving the impression that I'm explaining how most Tenyo tricks work in the book. This is not the case. I am not giving instructions on how most T-numbered tricks work. That's not the point of the book. I am explaining many tricks, and these are often new handlings for existing T-number items (if you have the props), and explanations of tricks that have never been sold outside Japan. Or in some cases the original handling of a T-numbered item before the prop was added.

It is times like this I regret my name here being "J M" Talbot. I hope most realize the JM is not me

I think most undestand the vision of the book Richard and are anxious to get it in our hands. I am very intrigued with the alternative handlings, and info on tricks not sold outside Japan.

Would a lecture on the book be OK?... That was a joke....

Cheers,

John

Dave is a known troll, consider the source...

If Richard didn't have the name he does in the magic community, a Tenyo book would likely never be made. Period.

Collecting Tenyo is a wonderful hobby, but so is performing Tenyo miracles; I think the book is going to appeal to anyone interested in Tenyo.

There is way too much left to misinterpretation considering the *** book isn't even out yet.

-Tom

Thanks to the chaps that sent me a couple of pm's with some information for my lecture. Looking forward to next week and I'll let you know how it goes.

Good news that you're getting input from Café members. Writing about lectures brings to mind this year's best deal...A Michael Ammar web lecture (with web audience questions included) on Feb. 5th. Just $1. Bargoon plus huh. Several Magician supplies internet stores are carrying this offer. It's a steal. Just gettin' the word out to everyone I can.

Are you planning to watch the Michael Ammar "At the Table," interactive lecture? I wonder what percentage of Tenyo folk also perform card, coin & close-up magic?

I'll be watching. Best $1 you could ever spend on magic.

Totally agree pierredan! Ammar for a buck... almost unbelievable. Great way to start the series off too.