The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Lone Survivor (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
The biggest mistake about the war in Vietnam was that the US should not have been fighting it.

The South Vietnam regime was extraordinarily corrupt and the Vietnamese had voted in internationally supervised elections for Ho Chi Minh. As we can see now, not even the "domino theory" reason for fighting the war was true. The North Vietnamese have won, and it isn't the case that the neighboring "dominoes" have "fallen." Vietnam is now a place where American capitalists are scrambling to make garments and other items with cheap labor. We could have had exactly the same outcome, only without the death of 50,000 Americans and 2 million Vietnamese, millions and millions of wounded and sick, devastated countryside, and grieving families.

And while I truly applaud your feelings that you wanted to give back and defend your country, the people that sent you there couldn't care less about freedom or you. The treatment of vets by every administration tells the story loud and clear. I know what I have said isn't easy to hear, and I will get flak for it, but I want you to know Dennis that I think you and the others who went, acted only out of the noblest intentions. But I don't feel the same about any of the politicians or generals who knew exactly what was going on and chose to cover it up and I don't want to see anymore of this going on again.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Agree with you one-hundred percent, landmark. We had no business being there. And I say that as one who, for eighteen months, was directly relaying battlefield intelligence from Vietnam to the White House. What was actually going on often bore little resemblance to what the American public was being told. (Dead water buffalo were, for example, often included in so called enemy casualty counts.) Those lies were exactly what led me to later become active in the anti-war movement.
Dennis Michael
View Profile
Inner circle
Southern, NJ
6018 Posts

Profile of Dennis Michael
It was not my intention to discuss the pros or cons of Nam. I joined before any discussion related to it and left the country 1 month before the Ted offensive.

I never questioned my orders, but began to question the way it was fought.

I've heard the nuclear stuff then, before that Cuba, the Cold war, collapse of the Berlin wall, and now with Israel and Iran. It will always be a tactic of politicians.

Landmark, I agree with what you said.

Goldwater was squashed because he was pro Vietnam War, to get what needs to be done, done, and get out. That was not popular at all. As for dead buffalo's I watch the marines blow them up, drinking beer cheering like a football game as the Viet Cong were using them (Hiding behind them) preparing to attack us. As for now, that action has haunted me my whole life. Now I question everything. I am fed up with all the lies and actions that bring nothing but heartache to many. As for kill numbers, see "Full Metal Jacket", reporters.

Bob, you and I will always be at odds, because I cannot in "my good conscience" ever vote for people like Hillary, Obama, and so many others that refuse to keep the public informed, and not by "Talking points". To this day, I cannot understand why so many people defend these persons.

It was BS then, and it is BS now.
Politics is about power and greed, not about right. IMHO
Dennis Michael
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Democrats hardly have a monopoly on talking points. The GOP, in fact, owns a cable network that is devoted to nothing but, and which is completely unconcerned with being fair and balanced.

Did you like how Bush kept the public informed about the reasons for going into Iraq, etc.?
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
Just a point of information. I wrote:
Quote:
The South Vietnam regime was extraordinarily corrupt and the Vietnamese had voted in internationally supervised elections for Ho Chi Minh.


I believe I was incorrect about the elections. An election was planned for 1956, but never held country wide because the US and South Vietnam refused to participate. Their reason for the non-participation, according to one knowledgeable observer was this:

Quote:
It was generally conceded that had an election been held, Ho Chi Minh would have been elected Premier. Unhappily, the situation was exacerbated by the almost total lack of leadership displayed by the Vietnamese Chief of State, Bao Dai, who, while nominally the head of that nation, chose to spend the bulk of his time in the spas of Europe rather than in his own land leading his armies against those of Communism.
and this:

Quote:
I am convinced that the French could not win the war because the internal political situation in Vietnam, weak and confused, badly weakened their military position. I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather than Chief of State Bao Dai.


Those quotes were Dwight Eisenhower's comments which can be found in Mandate For Change.

Thanks all for the civility. I'll shut up now.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Yes. There's a reason why Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City.
General_Magician
View Profile
Special user
United States
707 Posts

Profile of General_Magician
The South Vietnamese govt was corrupt, but the communists were worse. Especially when you consider that no free and fair elections have been held in Vietnam since we withdrew troops and all the "re-education camps" that the communists set up that so many innocent civilians were tortured and executed in after our troops withdrew (yet we don't hear about any human rights folks or anti-war folks complaining about them do we?). That's that nice, free, fair, humane, democratic communist government you talked so highly about Bob at work in Vietnam. Except there is one problem: there was nothing free or humane about that communist government that so many of the US anti-war group supported and their was no freedom for the Vietnamese people when the communists took over.

The Vietnam War was a case of evil triumphing over good. A case of a victory for tyranny and oppression over freedom. And we have the anti-war movement in the US at the time to thank for the victory of tyranny, oppression, evil and communism in Vietnam. The thing is, freedom isn't free and sometimes it requires that you have to fight for freedom, but the anti-war movement in the US didn't want to pay the price for freedom and sometimes that means we have to send troops overseas to keep things at bay. Fortunately we won the Cold War and defeated communist totalitarianism in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. Unfortunately for the Vietnamese, we lost in Vietnam though and suffered the consequences of having to live under communist totalitarianism and we suffered the consequences for damaged credibility and I would say the cause of freedom also suffered a setback because of our defeat in Vietnam. And again, that's thanks to the US anti-war movement and traitors like Jane Fonda. I would also say our political and military leadership at the time was incompetent and didn't help either.

But again, I don't want to digress, but I'll throw in my two cents worth, even if I didn't live back then, I still think the bad guys won in Vietnam. Sometimes, in life, the bad guys do win unfortunately.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

Company Website
Facebook Business Page
Twitter Business Page
RNK
View Profile
Inner circle
5161 Posts

Profile of RNK
Quote:
On 2014-01-14 11:01, mastermindreader wrote:
Democrats hardly have a monopoly on talking points. The GOP, in fact, owns a cable network that is devoted to nothing but, and which is completely unconcerned with being fair and balanced.

Did you like how Bush kept the public informed about the reasons for going into Iraq, etc.?


What? I guess you don't have cable? Well actually you don't need cable- every local ABC, NBC and CBS is all about the Deomcrats. Not to mention CNN and MSNBC who are ALL about Democrats and their point ONLY. Especially MSNBC! If you really think this is not the case you must have your head buried beneath the ground.

Wow.

RNK
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Thanks to the US anti-war movement untold thousands of American lives were saved. Vietnam was a huge mistake. We had NO business escalating our involvement there and intervening in a civil war in which the Communists were actually the ones with the popular support of the Vietnamese people.

You want to look for bad guys, look no further than the US military industrial complex and the profiteers who made a fortune off the war. And don't forget that our commitment of ground forces was based on a fictitious attack in the Gulf of Tonkin, which even Johnson later acknowledged to have been fabricated.
Dennis Michael
View Profile
Inner circle
Southern, NJ
6018 Posts

Profile of Dennis Michael
Quote:
On 2014-01-14 12:15, mastermindreader wrote:
Thanks to the US anti-war movement untold thousands of American lives were saved. Vietnam was a huge mistake. We had NO business escalating our involvement there and intervening in a civil war in which the Communists were actually the ones with the popular support of the Vietnamese people.

Thanks to the Jane Fonda (and followers) untold thousands of American lives were lost. When I was ordered not to shot until I was shot at is the major reason soldiers were lost. That's not war, it's target practice with our troops. When the general hands were tied, the war was lost. Was Vietnam a mistake, not from my point of view. I cannot forget what I saw and did, neither can any soldier.

Quote:
On 2014-01-14 12:15, mastermindreader wrote:
You want to look for bad guys, look no further than the US military industrial complex and the profiteers who made a fortune off the war. And don't forget that our commitment of ground forces was based on a fictitious attack in the Gulf of Tonkin, which even Johnson later acknowledged to have been fabricated.


I am aware of this now but not back then. It was this exposure that led to an all out protest to pull our troops out. Also the media did show the horrors of war for the first time. What hurts the most was the way the vets were treated. They were only doing what the government told them to do. That is still going on. Hindsight, like football, the "what if's" are plentiful. Even now many profit and make fortunes from war. The reasons for war have never changed.

Bob we can go head to head on this and your thoughts as well as mine would never change. I carry the battle scars, you carry the political rhetoric I've heard so many times, I refuse to get into a political one upmanship over Vietnam. I volunteered to serve, and now I am paying the price for that service, like so many others then and now.

Finally, where would we be now without our military? Probably speaking German.
Dennis Michael
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
I volunteered to serve as well, Dennis. War hawks have no monopoly on patriotism.

I lost far too many friends in that useless and senseless war.
General_Magician
View Profile
Special user
United States
707 Posts

Profile of General_Magician
I just watched the movie Dennis about a day ago after seeing the post here on the forum about it and the comments from the OP. You'll be tremendously proud of how well the Navy SEALs fought even though we lost good men that day. Our service members fought well and with honor. It's a powerful movie. It made me very proud after watching the movie. The Navy SEALs fought very well.

Sad we lost good men though, but they fought very well, with bravery, honor and courage. The Navy SEALs and our service members make all of us Americans very proud. I also hope the Lone Survivor from that battle is looked after by his fellow vets, Navy SEALS and family members. He needs to be looked after, especially after putting his life on the line for us and after all he has endured. Of course, the family members of the SEALS who didn't make it back need to be looked out for as well.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

Company Website
Facebook Business Page
Twitter Business Page
rockwall
View Profile
Special user
762 Posts

Profile of rockwall
Thanks for getting this back on topic General Magician. I don't know why landmark and Bob seemed so intent on turning this off topic and political.

Good to see how well the movie is doing nationally.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Quote:
On 2014-01-15 12:24, rockwall wrote:
Thanks for getting this back on topic General Magician. I don't know why landmark and Bob seemed so intent on turning this off topic and political.

Good to see how well the movie is doing nationally.


Funny how you don't mention Dennis, or how General Magician himself has made political comments about Vietnam. Oh, that's right, you agree with them so it's okay.

But. to be fair, you might want to look back on the thread and discover who brought up the Vietnam War in the first place.
But, yes, this is a great film.
General_Magician
View Profile
Special user
United States
707 Posts

Profile of General_Magician
Quote:
Good to see how well the movie is doing nationally.


Yeah it is. The movie made me want to go out and buy the book. I am happy to help make a Navy SEAL rich off book sales (I expect in the very least that this Navy SEAL is getting a good cut of the book sales from his book). He's earned every penny plus more. I like the Navy SEALs motto as well of "The only easy day is yesterday." It shows great values and work ethic. It's those kind of values that make our country strong. I also think the Navy SEALs set a wonderful example for others to follow. True, they are soldiers and trained to kill and possibly die on behalf of our country, but there is a lot of honor and the values they have as warriors are awesome. Those values and the honor the SEALs have are wonderful qualities to emulate. I have a deep respect for them.

I know the military and special forces command probably do not approve of book deals or movies, but that's the military and I can understand their point of view. But I also think it's important that people know about the hard work and sacrifices the SEALs have made on behalf of our country as well.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

Company Website
Facebook Business Page
Twitter Business Page
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
On the contrary, such movies are made with the explicit approval, cooperation, and funding by the US military.
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16200 Posts

Profile of tommy
Only three days after the ambush, Ismail narrowly escaped death after a B-52 bombed the compound he was staying at in the remote village of Chechal. Locals claimed a large number of women and children were killed in the strike, which the Coalition later confirmed, but added "enemy terrorists" were also among the dead. According to one source who spoke with the BBC shortly after incident, Ismail left the compound with three Arab men minutes before the strike occurred.


http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2......l_im.php
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rockwall
View Profile
Special user
762 Posts

Profile of rockwall
Quote:
On 2014-01-15 14:28, landmark wrote:
On the contrary, such movies are made with the explicit approval, cooperation, and funding by the US military.


Or, as in the case of Zero Dark Thirty, the White House.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Now who's bringing politics into the discussion? What you've just alleged is a totally debunked talking point of the GOP repeated endlessly during the last election.

Quote:
Several Republican sources charged the Obama Administration of improperly providing Bigelow and her team access to classified information during their research for the film. These charges, along with charges of other leaks to the media, became a prevalent election season talking point by conservatives. The Republican national convention party platform even claimed Obama "has tolerated publicizing the details of the operation to kill the leader of Al Qaeda."[60] No release of these details has been proven.[66]

The Republican congressman Peter T. King requested that the C.I.A. and the U.S. Defense Department investigate if classified information was inappropriately released; both departments said they would look into it.[67] The C.I.A. responded to Congressman King writing, "the protection of national security equities – including the preservation of our ability to conduct effective counterterrorism operations – is the decisive factor in determining how the CIA engages with filmmakers and the media as a whole."[68]

The conservative watchdog group Judicial Watch publicized C.I.A. and U.S. Defense Department documents obtained through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, and alleged that "unusual access to agency information" was granted to the filmmakers. But, an examination of the documents showed no evidence that classified information was leaked to the filmmakers. In addition, C.I.A. records did not show any involvement by the White House in relation to the filmmakers.[18][60] The filmmakers have said they were not given access to classified details about Osama bin Laden's killing.[14]
[bold emphasis added]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Dark_T......isanship
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
On 2014-01-15 18:31, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-01-15 14:28, landmark wrote:
On the contrary, such movies are made with the explicit approval, cooperation, and funding by the US military.


Or, as in the case of Zero Dark Thirty, the White House.

Absolutely. But not OR. AND.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Lone Survivor (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.42 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL