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MagicMattMan
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"Sad article from CT magazine about magic. Writer admittedly doesn't understand magic. Why not just consult a magician? Then you wouldn't contribute to an even greater ignorance on the subject." - Harris III

http://au.christiantoday.com/article/mor......6751.htm

Christianity Today ran this article today on their Australian site.

Thoughts?

Harris III found this & posted it on his Facebook; for those of you who aren't on there, here's the talk so far:

Rod: Yeah, I read this earlier today. Sad. I'm surprised CT ran it.

Bubba: Sorry man.....

Lucas: Sad and lame. someone needs a hug (from a magician). Ha!

Rod: Her own words: "I believe for something to be called a miracle, the source needs to be God. All else is just mere trickery - not the real deal." Sooooo, I'm not getting why the rest of her article questions that fact.

Dean: How Sad... and unfortunate.

Harris III: Rod - My thoughts exactly.

Julian: Wow. I guess everyone is looking for a new way to create an "us vs. them" mentality. It always hurts my heart to see that kind of rhetoric come from fellow believers.

Dennis: She needs to see one of your shows!

Brad: I always find the "how do I know they're not using sorcery" objection interesting. There's no Scriptural precedent for sorcery or demonic power being used to do most of the things stage performers do. Once you go beyond what Scripture actually says and start speculating about what demons can do, where do you stop?

Personally I'm worried about KFC. How do we know they're not using the power of Satan to put that tasty flavor into their chicken. I mean, why else would they keep it a secret? (I believe my logic is as sound as the logic in that article.)
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not, none will suffice." -Joseph Dunninger



"Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it."Hebrews 13:2
Kevin Ridgeway
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She does wrap up the article with this though:

Some people may call me crazy and ridiculous but at the end of the day, this is probably something that each person will need to consider themselves. My unease is my unease. I know that it is between me and God, so I continually ask him for guidance in such matters. I pray each day that God continually gives me a discerning spirit.

If something doesn’t seem right, I would rather go with those feelings, than completely ignore them. I’m not telling anyone not to watch magic shows, but I am saying be mindful because for all you know, it may be more than just an illusion.

That last part may be her asterisk, caveat, disclaimer etc or it may her true feelings. Either way that's how she feels for herself and that's her prerogative, even if she may be incorrect.
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Terry Holley
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I think my head is going to explode!

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
harris
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While I disagree with her points on magic shows and
Christianity, a few things ring true

Are shows getting to be "old hat, cookie cutter copies"

Do some of us use names like "deceptionist" to avoid being called a magician. I have used the term
Gospel illusions.

You trusted and faithful servant and magicians in our
Sense of the word know her writing about our connection to true sorcery is not true.
We also know articles like this are not new.

Of course things like local clubs naming inner circles -read active in their club "sorceror's circle" muddies the
Water some.

I don't subscribe to this magazine.
Mental floss and TLR are the two I do get through the mail.

Has anyone wrote them an email or posted to their on line site?
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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Kanawati
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Thanks for the link. I'm glad she had the courage to express how she feels and I'm not surprised that a Christian would feel this way given the way some magic is presented. Even non-Christians will sometimes wonder whether an illusion they are seeing is something more than just that. I have to admit I'm not a fan of performances where the magician wants you to think that more than natural skill is involved! To me that's not entertainment...or at least I don't find it entertaining. Not too long ago, I had a lady come up to me after a Gospel performance and said something like, "Some Christians are against magic tricks but I liked what you did." I was very encouraged because I felt that she was saying that I had eleviated some concerns that she had over the appropriatness of magic. We have an opportunity to show audiences that a performance is all about entertainment and sometimes a great tool to illustrate spiritual truths and it really comes down to how we present the tricks. John
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Harris Deutsch
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I am glad you shared a real response after your program.

You / we are part of the solution.

Love brother h
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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Terry Holley
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Most of you have probably read these articles by Andre' Kole and Robert Hill, but Sheldon Rhodes, the author of the website linked to below, has done a nice job putting them together into brochure form for print out:

http://www.jestkidding.com/wp-content/up......ible.pdf

and

http://jestkidding.com/wp-content/upload......ic-3.pdf
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Dougini
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Quote:
...Some people may call me crazy and ridiculous...


Yes, Kandima. They will.

Doug
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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Thanks Terry.

As far as driving me crazy. My wife would joke that is a short trip.

The whirling dervishes moved in I complained.
Let them whirl, replied my wise friend.
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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Mel Yoder
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All the Harry Potter that people see and hear does not help the situation at all...If that's all I knew,I would think we were a bunch of wizards to.
Mel

Mel
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2014-01-26 13:35, Mel Yoder wrote:
All the Harry Potter that people see and hear does not help the situation at all...If that's all I knew,I would think we were a bunch of wizards to.
Mel

Mel


The only problem is, there is nothing to substantiate that "wizards" have any power to do the things that are ascribed to them in books and/or movies! And there is certainly nothing from the Bible that should cause one to believe these supposed powers are available from demonic sources.
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Mel Yoder
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[quote]On 2014-01-26 14:18, Terry Holley wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-01-26 13:35, Mel Yoder wrote:
All the Harry Potter that people see and hear does not help the situation at all...If that's all I knew,I would think we were a bunch of wizards to.
Mel

Mel


The only problem is, there is nothing to substantiate that "wizards" have any power to do the things that are ascribed to them in books and/or movies! And there is certainly nothing from the Bible that should cause one to believe these supposed powers are available from demonic sources.
[/quote

Are you saying those of the Pagan faith have no extra power sorce?If that is true,explain?

Mel
Terry Holley
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[quote]On 2014-01-26 14:42, Mel Yoder wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-01-26 14:18, Terry Holley wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-01-26 13:35, Mel Yoder wrote:
All the Harry Potter that people see and hear does not help the situation at all...If that's all I knew,I would think we were a bunch of wizards to.
Mel

Mel


The only problem is, there is nothing to substantiate that "wizards" have any power to do the things that are ascribed to them in books and/or movies! And there is certainly nothing from the Bible that should cause one to believe these supposed powers are available from demonic sources.
[/quote

Are you saying those of the Pagan faith have no extra power sorce?If that is true,explain?

Mel


Hi Mel,

I know this will appear as a "shameless plug", but my response to your question can be found in the book that I coauthored with illusionist Andre' Kole. I could never answer your question here as there is too much ground to cover! I don't believe that the Café rules will allow me to post a link to the book, but you can find it by googling "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena Terry Holley". There are a number of inexpensive "used" copies available online.

Best,

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Mel Yoder
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Hi Terry

I understand with Elijah and the prophets of Baal,in 1 Kings that the prophets of Baal were powerless.But I believe God allow Satian to use his power at other times.To much evidence that spells are being cast,and Spirits working through people in Boards and Pendulums to name a few.I will look for the book.
Thanks
Mel
ChrisG
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H Terry
It has been brought up before, In Bob Hill's paper Exodus 22.14 (the very first scripture reference) is about the death of a borrowed animal nothing to do with magic.
I guess Sheldon and Bob need to be told. I'll look up Bob's e-mail address and send him something.

Edit- on the FCM web-site the scripture ref. is Exodus 22.18
"Consensus is the negation of Leadership"

M. Thatcher
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2014-01-26 19:12, ChrisG wrote:
H Terry
It has been brought up before, In Bob Hill's paper Exodus 22.14 (the very first scripture reference) is about the death of a borrowed animal nothing to do with magic.
I guess Sheldon and Bob need to be told. I'll look up Bob's e-mail address and send him something.

Edit- on the FCM web-site the scripture ref. is Exodus 22.18


Good catch, Chris!
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2014-01-26 18:49, Mel Yoder wrote:
Hi Terry

I understand with Elijah and the prophets of Baal,in 1 Kings that the prophets of Baal were powerless.But I believe God allow Satian to use his power at other times.To much evidence that spells are being cast,and Spirits working through people in Boards and Pendulums to name a few.I will look for the book.
Thanks
Mel


Hi Mel,

I posted the following (below) in The FCM thread in regard to researching occurences that people consider to be "evidence" of the paranormal, supernatural, etc. So many times the report is from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone! When and if I was able to get to the source, it was usually a different story than what I originally heard. For the most part, no one can track down the people who were supposedly involved, but it is believed because it came from a "reliable" source.

******************

Proverbs 18:17 - "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him."

I have found this to be so true in so many instances while I was researching for my book. I still find it to be true.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Dougini
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Quote:
On 2014-01-26 18:49, Mel Yoder wrote:
Too much evidence that spells are being cast, and Spirits working through people in Boards and Pendulums to name a few.


I know. I believe ya. But try and find ONE person. One shred of evidence we can put before the naysayers to PROVE what we're saying is true! I can't. Even my sister can't tell me where George went. He just moved. But, she did see his stitched wounds. Apparently from a VERY large claw...

Doug
themagiciansapprentice
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Some folks have an issue .. so put in a spoken rider about NOT having any supernatural powers (I joke that my super hero power is being able to READ the instructions and then practice, practice, practice ...)

folks from some countries/backgrounds have real issues about magic, especially during a Church Service ...
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
Terry Holley
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As we all know, if we had the kind of power the author thinks we might, why would we waste it pushing a cell phone through a water bottle??????? I would at least use it to make 4 aces assemble in one pile of cards. I mean seriously now!

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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