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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » A 'New' View on Magicians per Christians (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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harris
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Harris Deutsch
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True evil does exist. It won't come a knocking with a mask or horns.

Sometimes it looks down right good/tempting.

Somewhere (in the black printing) in the Bible..one that was known as a Magician...tried to buy what the Jesus and His Disciples had.

He repented(if my memory is working)

Demons come in all shapes and sizes.

Usually not the ones at your 8 year old birthday parties. (or corporate event..or Church's icecream social)

Knowing where the source is coming from Priceless.

For one that did not want to step forward..it could be a talking (no not ventriloquism) burning bush

or to a youth serving in the temple...a small voice calling his name....

The sorcerors connected with the Pharoahs related to the first example scoffed at His power and might..
Their serpents were gobbled up.

We know how this will all end..but along the way there are some not so pretty things coming.
The descriptions in Revelation(no s here) would make great graphics in any Steven King blockbuster)..in fact in 2014 there are going to be more Bible based movies...

God is great all the time ..it is His nature

Satan lies...that is his nature.

Because magicians lie..or stretch the truth does not put us in league ..with he that should be named(as apposed to Volgamorth...or some such name)the fallen angel Satan...

Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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Gary Barker
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I wrote a letter to Christianity Today encouraging them to publish a subsequent article that helps continue this dialogue while giving examples of how magic is being used to not only entertain in a family & faith friendly way but also how it can be used to illustrate biblical truth to edify and evangelize.

I am hopeful they will consider my request and I will update you if I hear back from them.
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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Gary.

Thanks for your action.

May God continue to use and bless your ministry.
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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Kevin Ridgeway
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I want to share a personal story that happened to us about 15 years ago. Before we put our stage show together, Kristen and I did airbrush tattoos. This was long before it was in every mall, long before it became commonplace. We had the season contracts with NBA, AAA Baseball, WBNA & Arena Football teams. But we also went to Christian Music Festivals around the country. We had booths at 8-10 Christian Music Festivals a year. The largest ones like Creation East, Creation West, Alive, Cornerstone, Agape, Sonshine, Icthus, Spirit West Coast, etc. This was in the late '90s and most festivals at first were reluctant as they thought it was a little too edgy. But we were able to persuade them to let us in. We even has license agreements with the top Christian bands at the time allowing a concert goer to get their favorite band's logo airbrushed on their arm. Needless to say it was huge hit and we would airbrush up to 2,500 people a day.

One year at Cornerstone festival ran by JPUSA we had an interesting situation. A gentleman came up to us and was very against what we were doing. He went on to say that what we were doing by 'tattooing' concert goers was evil, wrong & sinful. Now to give you some persepctive, this gentleman, roughly 30 years old, had very long hair & beard. He went on to tell me he was a Nazirite, basically living by Levitican Law.

I explained that these were not real tattoos, but that they were simply airbrushed and lasted 3-5 days. That didn't convince him. He went on to quote Leviticus 19:28, roughly saying Do not mark or tattoo yourselves. Now, me knowing the typical arguments, I said but you only stated part of the verse. The rest of the verse refers to not mark or tattoo yourselves unto the dead or for the dead. This did not convince him.

He was getting more and more vocal about the evil we were perpetuating. So I got a little caught up in his argument and decided to quote Leviticus 19:19 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material'. You see he was wearing Levi jeans(I missed the pun at the time), and a 50/50 blend tshirt. I asked if it was ok for him to pick and choose which Levitican laws he would follow and which ones he wouldn't, as it was obvious he was wearing various kinds of materials. This did not convince him and I was wrong anyways for attacking him.

It all finally came down to this. In the heat of the this argument & disagreement I simply asked if what he was doing and in how he was doing it...was it in a spirit of Love? While this did not convince him, it did CONVICT him. He turned and walked away.


I'm sharing our story because in this very thread and I'm sure on various forums online, there are people posting and responding in direct violation of what Matthew & Galatians instructs us to do. In Matthew & Galatians it says 'When we confront a brother or sister, it must be done in a spirit of love'. So please make sure when you respond to people that you do so in Love. I don't believe they are consciously being wrong, they are simply mistaken...most of the times based on their upbringing, background, ethnicity, superstition, etc.
Living Illusions
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Kevin Ridgeway &
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wwhokie1
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"1. Do the illusionists have a hidden agenda (e.g. try to disprove the existence of God) and are they seeking self praise?
2. Could they be inadvertently making a mockery of God or do they deliberately mock God using their “secret crafts”?
3. Could they be attempting to deceive us into thinking that you don’t need God in order to perform miraculous acts? Do their tricks try to deter people from God?
4. How do they perform these tricks? Is there a supernatural power involved and who is the source of this power? "

I find the above comments from the article to be unbelievable and completely uninformed. If you are going to write such an article, one should do some research. Also, the article doesn't seem to recognize that people who are not Christians or have no belief in God may have certain agendas regardless of their profession and that doesn't reflect upon the profession itself. In fact, some pastors are "seeking self praise", does that condemn all pastors or even the position? And I am always shocked when Christians suggest that magicians are using real supernatural power - that must be a volume of Tarbell that I haven't seen yet. The author should do some research into magic before trying to write about it, then they could write an article that was informed and based on fact, not ones own imagination and preconceived ideas.

Many of the arguments given are simply arguing that people who are against God will act in ways that are antagonistic toward God. Of course that is true. And such people will use whatever is at their disposal to present their views, whether that is books, movies, music, magic, education, politics, etc... The fact that some people may use magic in a negative way, makes no statement about magic, only about that person. To suggest otherwise is not supported by the argument and a violation of the rules of logic. Just as there are Christian books, movies, music, etc..., there are Christian magicians. What some people may or may not be doing, says nothing about what others are doing. You simply can't define all magicians as having the same goals. Even if some were doing what the author suggests, that says nothing about the many others. Using the logic of the writer of this article, one could argue that since Christian Illusionists are trying to use magic to share the gospel, then that's what all magicians are doing. The writer tries to restrict all magicians to a certain definition; and restrict the "art of magic" to that stereotyped definition that they have provided. Furthermore, their definition is based on "could they be" and other questions. Notice that no answers are given to these questions, and no evidence provided to support any answer to the questions. Yet, the author forms conclusions to these questions, conclusions formed from their own thoughts, opinions, and concerns - not on research, evidence, interviews, or facts of any kind. The author throws out some biblical references without any understanding of or reference to the fact that the term "magic" has multiple definitions and in the Bible passages are referring to something different from today's "illusion" shows.

This article is nothing more than an opinion piece trying to suggest it has some factual basis or concerns, when in fact, it abandons all logical argument, and any desire to seek out truth. It tries to define an entire group by what some "could be doing". It has huge logical flaws by trying to suggest conclusions that don't follow from the arguments given. And the arguments that are made are based on thoughts, feelings, opinions, and preconceived ideas; without any effort toward fact gathering.

And yet, many Christians will be impressed by the article and will accept its conclusions because it sounds biblical and is taking a stand against evil.

Condemning things is easy, doing the hard work of seeking the truth takes a lot of time and effort.
seraph127
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This is the sort of thing that has many non-Christians convinced that Christians are benighted, fear-driven and fear-mongering, superstitious atavisms.
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
Roy the Illusionist
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Did you notice how she signs off the article with the following verse:

'To God be the glory forever and ever! Amen' [Galatians 1 verse 5]

I find it funny that she basically calls magicians/illusionists "Satanic," yet we she signs off with a phrase used throughout the Bible, which Christian magicians use.
I was at a Christian magic show once and, after the show, an audience member personally praised the magician's performance (which was VERY good, by the way). The magician's response was that phrase: "To God be the glory forever and ever."
Are you watching closely?
Danny Kazam
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When you do a good show, people give you the glory for being a good entertainer. It means nothing when we say, I give God the glory because it was our skill, our talent, not God's skills, nor His talents. No matter how may times we use that scripture, it doesn't change the truth that many have already given us the glory for our skills and talents. We are just basically giving God lip service.

If I get credit for being a great magician, people will praise me for it. They will talk about how good I was, and will tell me how much they enjoyed my show. They will pat me on the back and say, "That was awesome". The best we can do is acknowledge it, say thank you, and take the opportunity to preach the cross, or give our testimony. Then, and only then, are we really giving God the glory.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2014-02-08 21:05, seraph127 wrote:
This is the sort of thing that has many non-Christians convinced that Christians are benighted, fear-driven and fear-mongering, superstitious atavisms.


I couldn't agree more Seraph! BTW, great to see you on The Café! I remember your great posts at ConjureNation. I need to contact Chris and rejoin. I forgot my username and password.
Roy the Illusionist
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Quote:
On 2014-02-09 20:13, Danny Kazam wrote:
When you do a good show, people give you the glory for being a good entertainer. It means nothing when we say, I give God the glory because it was our skill, our talent, not God's skills, nor His talents. No matter how may times we use that scripture, it doesn't change the truth that many have already given us the glory for our skills and talents. We are just basically giving God lip service.

If I get credit for being a great magician, people will praise me for it. They will talk about how good I was, and will tell me how much they enjoyed my show. They will pat me on the back and say, "That was awesome". The best we can do is acknowledge it, say thank you, and take the opportunity to preach the cross, or give our testimony. Then, and only then, are we really giving God the glory.



We shouldn't forget where that talent came from. Smile
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Danny Kazam
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My talents came from books, dvd's and lots of practicing. I am not taking anything from God when I admit that because I am very aware of what God has done for me, and continues to do for me. I know the gifts he has given me, which are things I did nothing to earn or qualify myself for. I earned my talents and my skills because I devoted time to learning, studying, and practicing them with hard work, sweat and tears. God's gifts and my talents are two different things. I did not earn the gifts God gave me, nor did I have to study them before God gave them to me.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Roy the Illusionist
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Quote:
On 2014-02-09 22:04, Danny Kazam wrote:
My talents came from books, dvd's and lots of practicing. I am not taking anything from God when I admit that because I am very aware of what God has done for me, and continues to do for me. I know the gifts he has given me, which are things I did nothing to earn or qualify myself for. I earned my talents and my skills because I devoted time to learning, studying, and practicing them with hard work, sweat and tears. God's gifts and my talents are two different things. I did not earn the gifts God gave me, nor did I have to study them before God gave them to me.


Talent is "natural skill."
For example, I am naturally good with cards, sleight of hand with sponge balls, and hand-eye coordination(for juggling). Many people don't have the "finger agility" to handle cards or perform sleights with sponges. Or the hand-eye coordination to juggle. Talents are gifts.
Talents come naturally, skill comes from practice, perfection comes from all three.
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Danny Kazam
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Because a talent can sometimes be a result "natural skill" does not mean it's a gift, and especially a gift from God. A "raw" talent is nothing without further work to it by us. In other words, I may be born with a beautiful voice, but if I am going to use that talent I am going to have to learn skills to make that talent work for me. I will have to make efforts to become a really good singer.

I don't want you thinking that we shouldn't be giving God glory for everything good in our lives. Giving God glory is always a good thing. I am saying not to just say it as lip service. Give God glory through our actions. Nothing gives God more glory than when we witness for Him and preach the Cross of Christ.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Roy the Illusionist
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Again, talent is not a result of "natural skill," it is a natural skill. Talent and gift are synonymous.
The magician gave God the glory for his performance, because God gave him the talent to perform in the first place.
I'm not saying talents can't be refined through practice, because they can. I wasn't able to rifle shuffle cards or juggle 3 objects immediately, but it started with my recognition of the fact that I am talented in those areas. Talents given to me freely; gifts.
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seraph127
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Quote:
On 2014-02-09 20:14, Vlad_77 wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-08 21:05, seraph127 wrote:
This is the sort of thing that has many non-Christians convinced that Christians are benighted, fear-driven and fear-mongering, superstitious atavisms.


I couldn't agree more Seraph! BTW, great to see you on The Café! I remember your great posts at ConjureNation. I need to contact Chris and rejoin. I forgot my username and password.


I'd certainly look forward to seeing you back at CN.

It's insulting, in a bizarre, inverted fashion. Magicians certainly DO try to get their audiences to believe in magic in the context of the theatrical performance, just as Sir Laurence Olivier would have wanted to convince you that he was King Lear, or that sort of thing - I speak of Coleridge's willing suspension of disbelief. Suspension, not "elimination". It requires careful thought, exacting and arduous preparation, and sustained effort in performance to entice people to imagine the dreams we weave for them. Then to have one's attempt at art dismissed with the charge that the Devil is doing it for us?!

$#^%!


Smile
There are many tricks, and many effects, but rarely a Grand Effect. There are many entertainers, but few real magicians. Many technicians, but few artists who use their art to explore their vision. - Derren Brown, Absolute Magic
robvh
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Quote:
On 2014-02-10 00:04, Roy the Illusionist wrote:
Again, talent is not a result of "natural skill," it is a natural skill. Talent and gift are synonymous.
The magician gave God the glory for his performance, because God gave him the talent to perform in the first place.


There's very little point arguing back and forth like this when we have a little something called the dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/talent
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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Yes. Let us give glory to God for our entertainment skills and arts. May I also give glory to be able to shovel my snow filled driveway and daily house cleaning.

Harris
Still too old to know it all
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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Danny Kazam
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Indeed! Let us give God glory for all things. I thank God for my career, not necessarily because He equipped me for it, but because He allowed me to persue the desires of my heart.

I don't mind when someone appreciates my talents and skills. I give God the glory for allowing me the opportunity to perform and entertain others. I show it by being a witness for Him, and using it as an opportunity to point others to the Cross. Regardless if some believe God gives people "natural" talent, or not. Our glory should never be just lip service, nor should we deny when others show praise and appreciation for our talents and skills. One day God is going to glorify us with new bodies.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Dougini
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Quote:
On 2014-02-10 00:04, Roy the Illusionist wrote:
The magician gave God the glory for his performance, because God gave him the talent to perform in the first place.

Wow. Roy, you hit that one out of the park! I wish I'd said that! LOL!

Quote:
On 2014-02-10 19:29, Danny Kazam wrote:
I give God the glory for allowing me the opportunity to perform and entertain others.


Again BINGO! Exactly right. Kudos, guys! Smile

Doug
Roy the Illusionist
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Quote:
On 2014-02-10 18:00, robvh wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-10 00:04, Roy the Illusionist wrote:
Again, talent is not a result of "natural skill," it is a natural skill. Talent and gift are synonymous.
The magician gave God the glory for his performance, because God gave him the talent to perform in the first place.


There's very little point arguing back and forth like this when we have a little something called the dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/talent



I used Oxford Dictionary. Smile
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/def......h/talent
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