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ManchurianMan83
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Quote:
On , Bande wrote:
Thanks for the answers. A bit on the fence, as what I love about this idea is the organic nature of it -- pulling a card case out of my jacket pocket, handing them a card, asking them to jot down their favorite quote/author/sports figure on the back so I can read it later, returning it to my case, closing it and the placing it back in my jacket pocket feels really natural -- then casually revealing their writing later in the conversation seems so fun. The bag seems very out of place -- of course one can justify anything (I am fastidious, I don't like fingerprints, I don't want it scratched etc.) but it takes away a bit of the organic charm since I have never seen anyone with a card case pull it out of a bag. I defintely don't want the bag to add impossibility since I am not trying to do a magic/mentalism trick. I am simply in synch with them at an amazing level.


There is a suggested handling on the DVD that would do away with the bag and instead replace it with certain type of Business cards.
That would allow you to do what you describe.

Pull out a card holder straight from your pocket, open it, hand them a business card, the other cards play the part the bag would have while they write and replace their card and then you simply place the rest of the cards back in the tin on top of theirs and the tin in your pocket.
Darkness
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Unfortunately, I have and will always have double sided business cards. I use all the real estate provided. Not just 50% worth of advertising.
If this peek is highly recommended, I may get a bunch reprinted. The challenge is pocket real estate. I don't carry a murse Smile Card holders are nice but I just keeps cards in my wallet. I guess I'm low status Smile

Just curious, how many of you use card holders already, or are you now just considering using them?
Can you paint it (with metal paint) without damaging it? Not a big fan of shiny metal, that's not silver, opps... I'm back to high status, either that or thinking about becoming a real estate agent.
Khuluma
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Thanks Manchurian. Good to hear there is an alternative to the bag as it seems several folks not too keen on the idea. Having said that, I do have a normal business cardholder which I hold bank cards in, and it came with a bag! So there you are, they do genuinely come with bags, however I leave mine at home as I am not sure what people would think if I produced my little bag and cardholder at a bank! At a wedding fair or magic gig on the other hand, it wouldn't be such an issue..
ManchurianMan83
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I feel this whole issue with the 'cloth bag' is being over analyzed.

Legitimately, when I ordered The Business, I didn't even realise there WAS a cloth bag.
It wasn't until I opened the package and saw the card holder stored inside one that I even knew there was one.
Yet I saw the demo before I ordered it.

I had simply misremembered the demo, assuming that the metal case was simply put straight away into his pocket.
Yet that's not the case!
As you all know, he clearly shows putting it into the cloth bag first.

My point is, I (who am always watching demos with a eagle-like 'magician's eye) completely overlooked the cloth bag.
I mean clearly I SAW him do it, I'm not blind, but when he put it in his pocket I must have 'switched off' and just gone 'ok you put it away I get it'.

The reason being is that the bag, both in the demo and in reality, is such a small part of the process.
It literally is a case of 'tin comes out of the bag at the start as its brought out of your pocket', 'the tin on its own is used for the rest of the process', 'tin is then placed back in the bag at the end as its placed away back in your pocket'.

If a magician who is LOOKING for suspicious things can completely overlook such a minimal thing and forget that actually one was used when I ordered it, why do you think a spectator is going to be any more clued in?
I'm not saying they won't see it, or they won't remember it, but it is SUCH a small part of the process.

I will say this too.

When I learned from the DVD that the bag is needed for the routine (if not using an alternative) I was initially disappointed I'll give you that BECAUSE I thoguht the method was simply use the case.
however, that changed as soon as I started USING the thing.
Seeing for myself what the method is, what the bag is otherwise for, what the routine is and just experiencing that in my own hands and starting to routine things with it, the bag just fades into the background because all it is at the end of the day is 'tin protection'.

It's easy to watch a demo over and over, over analyzing an item such as the bag when you don't have it, don't know what the method is and aren't experiencing the item in your own hands and are working a routine out with it.

if this bag is such an issue that cannot be overlooked for some of you then move on elsewhere.

While there ARE suggested alternatives, if you're already trying to work out of the routine an object which IS perfectally justified but also such a small part of the whole process as a whole then let's face it, this is fundamentally not for you.

Personally however I'd say most of this is because you can re-watch and overanalyze a demo and it's props.
The bag itself is a normal 100% examinable bag (not that that's important but just saying) and you don't do anything 'out of place' with it that would spark immediate suspicion (such as laying it over their business card or something) it's simply the tin comes out from it, the tin goes back into it.

If you ask me, no different to owning and using a 'Card Guard'? Why do you need a card guard if your cards are already in a box?
Well, it protects the box and makes it last longer.
This is the same.
Darkness
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It looks like a good effect. The bag is only a little suspicious and audience management can address that easily.
The problem for me is (like anyone cares what the problem with me is ha)
I personally don't think anyone would put a cheap look silver tin card holder in a bag (unless your a woman maybe putting it in a purse full of stuff).
Just seems excessive for a man to do it.

You almost can't find a silver one as they are all custom colours and textures. In fact the asian mall by me has a huge dollar store that has a whole section of cool looking cases.
Silver is super old school who would buy silver anyways? Unless you remember when they first came out and you're over 50 (nothing wrong with being that age BTW)
Maybe to protect a fancy expensive looking case (even in a plain gold colour) but for tin? Really?
It's does draw a little attention and becomes such a magician prop move. It does lessens believability somewhat in my opinion, unless of course you look uptight to begin with and would put a cheap tin card holder in a bag.

Can this be done with the thicker cards?
Can this be spray painted with a metal paint?
I'm disappointed they didn't make it black (there super cheap to make).
On the fence with tin...
ManchurianMan83
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On Feb 27, 2014, Darkness wrote:
It looks like a good effect. The bag is only a little suspicious and audience management can address that easily.
The problem for me is (like anyone cares what the problem with me is ha)
I personally don't think anyone would put a cheap look silver tin card holder in a bag (unless your a woman maybe putting it in a purse full of stuff).
Just seems excessive for a man to do it.

You almost can't find a silver one as they are all custom colours and textures. In fact the asian mall by me has a huge dollar store that has a whole section of cool looking cases.
Silver is super old school who would buy silver anyways? Unless you remember when they first came out and you're over 50 (nothing wrong with being that age BTW)
Maybe to protect a fancy expensive looking case (even in a plain gold colour) but for tin? Really?
It's does draw a little attention and becomes such a magician prop move. It does lessens believability somewhat in my opinion, unless of course you look uptight to begin with and would put a cheap tin card holder in a bag.

Can this be done with the thicker cards?
Can this be spray painted with a metal paint?
I'm disappointed they didn't make it black (there super cheap to make).
On the fence with tin...


This WHOLE post is classic example of 'over analyzing' the prop.

If someone in the same room as you or in your company was to pull out a card holder from a bag, maybe to you it might at the time seem a little odd but I seriously doubt for one second you'd give it much more thought five minutes later as in the grand scheme of thinsg is just not that important.

However because we're talking about the use of it in a magic context and also the thought of you yourself using it that you're now making it a huge thing worthy of a whole three paragraphs worth of text.

On top of that, not just having an issue with the bag your now complaining about the actual card holder itself.

Maybe this isn't the product for you.

To answer your questions though, yes to both, except only the outside of the case.
Phatmeat
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I'm just curious when this will be made available to magic dealers worldwide.
IAIN
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Vistaprint often offer these kinds of card cases for free...

and you don't need the cloth - just engage yer brain a little...

you can rest it on top of a notepad if worst comes to the worst...
I've asked to be banned
Darkness
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Hey ManchurianMan83 dude. This Café is partially for over analyzing effect in general is it not. Get used to it bro.

Have you ever seen someone pull a business card holder out of a bag? Really? Its not strange to you? It would draw no attention as being a magicy move?

I would opt to not use it so its a moot point for me you are entitled to your opinion. But what you are not entitled to is to rip into me or dictate how long my post should be.
You are a very entitled person to feel you can do that to others. I am entitled to my opinion without you going after me.

I may buy it, if I could paint it and lose the bag I was pretty clear on that. A sliver tin card holder is pretty low brow in todays day and age, it may work well for you though.
Darkness
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Yes good point Ian. And Vistaprint is awesome! You can get 250 cards, double sided, heavy stock, glossy, colour for $20 on sale. Well at least in Canada you can.
ManchurianMan83
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Quote:
On Feb 27, 2014, Darkness wrote:
Hey ManchurianMan83 dude. This Café is partially for over analyzing effect in general is it not. Get used to it bro.

Have you ever seen someone pull a business card holder out of a bag? Really? Its not strange to you? It would draw no attention as being a magicy move?

I would opt to not use it so its a moot point for me you are entitled to your opinion. But what you are not entitled to is to rip into me or dictate how long my post should be.
You are a very entitled person to feel you can do that to others. I am entitled to my opinion without you going after me.

I may buy it, if I could paint it and lose the bag I was pretty clear on that. A sliver tin card holder is pretty low brow in todays day and age, it may work well for you though.


The world is a big place Darkness full of a variety of people.
Someone somewhere will have a cloth bag for their business card holder.
However it clearly won't be you will it! :p

There are plenty worse examples in magic of things being brought into play that seem more out of place than this bag.

'It would draw no attention as being a magicy move?'
Not if a layman did it no.

Like I said above, it's only because a magician is thinking about this that this even becomes an issue.


Also, calm down a bit. You act like I've personally attacked you or something.
Am I allowed to feel like the points you raised are a tad odd and call you up on them? (calling 'silver tins' low brow? what? when? I missed that memo)
If I can't respond to your comments then what is the point of a forum?
I am going to give you my opinion of your opinion so 'get used to it bro'
Did I say your opinion was wrong?
No, I said that personally I felt you were overanalyzing the issue and that maybe give this a miss.
Where in that am I acting at all 'entitled'?

Also, just because the Café is 'for' something doesn't mean it's the best thing to do!

if you overanalyze an effect does that REALLY help? really?
Like I say just because that's what this forum is for doesn't change the fact that the over analysis of this effect is getting in some people's way...IMO.
Perseus Arkomanis
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I recently got The Buisness by Romanos at Blackpool and it is really great guys!
The cloth bag is just a container. If you do not draw attention to that neither the spectators will.
Even if you draw attention to it by emphasizing how much you care of your props it can't hurt you.
The cafi is here for critisism but it must be creative critisism. It is a great gimmick and I can see great uses to it.
The production value of the dvd is as always great and it has many ideas, handlings and uses.
Now as stated before you DON'T HAVE TO USE THE BAG...just replace it with something similar...a piece of your clothing can work...a tablecloth...come on...i'm still waiting for a great effect to be put up at the cafi and not have people ranting on the tiniest bits...
Peace to you all and cheers!
The things that are most real to me are the illusions which I create...everything else is quicksand...
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<BR>www.perseusmagic.com
ManchurianMan83
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Anyway, lol I don't wish to debate this any further. It's a bloody cloth bag for pete's sake.
Really not worth wasting any more time on.
It's also somewhat unfair to the ingenuity of the actual peek device itself to be focusing so much on such a small insignificant aspect of what is,when you get passed the bag issue, an incredible device.

So, as has already been mentioned, there ARE alternatives to the bag suggested on the DVD.

You cannot however just perform with the Tin on it's own. You WILL need something else.

Things such as:

. Right type of business cards
. Right type of notepad (nice suggestion IAIN)
. Right type of surface
. Right type of clothing (edited to include Perseus Suggestion..Nice one, good idea)

If you get the right type of surface then truly you can do this with no additional items but the tin, but that will depend on the location you perform so may not always be possible.

Thing is if you're going to be carrying round a notepad or another extra item to achieve what the bag does, which will take up pocket space, I argue why not use the bag as it takes far less pocket space, because the tin goes in the bag.

However for those that are vehemently agaisnt the idea of the bag as you can see there are options open to you.

Having the right type of business cards is a really good alternative.
Darkness
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You are entitled to love it. Me not so much. This is a step backwards from a wallet. I feel if the card holder looked classy it might be worth carrying for ME.
When it comes to representing MYself in business I only have one chance to make a good impression and this isn't helping. This is for my business cards.
I also don't carry or wear a cheap belt, wallet, shoes, pen, watch when I'm soliciting for gigs. that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Nothing more to say thanks.
ManchurianMan83
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Lol ah, forums.

The only place where you get people who feel the need to post what they 'don't want'.

You don't get that anywhere else.

You wouldn't go into a shop selling things you have no desire to buy just to tell them that.

You wouldn't queue up in starbucks just to eventually tell the barista you cant stand their coffee.

Yet on forums you get people that feel the need to 'waste time' essentially doing that very thing.
If you had no intention on getting this for whatever reason why bother posting?

Nobody learns anything informative because you have no experience either good or bad with the item to help would-be purchasers, and ultimately your mainly wasting your own time by posting about something you have no intention of getting.

*shrugs*
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Manchurian, you're engaging in this as much as Darkness Smile

Personally, if a prop such as this will often require a second item, I would like that item to have more than a neutral effect on the effect, if possible (especially as there are other, similar, options that don't *ever* require an addition). That doesn't seem to be the case, here. The bag/whatever certainly doesn't seem to be problematic at all, and virtually anything can be justified. On the other hand, the extra item doesn't add anything to the effect, or give it an advantage.

So, what would set this apart (for me) would involve the look of the case - a highly polished, solid and stout high class metal case (adding engraved initials, perhaps) would likely cause me to add a metal case to my current leather as an option. From the photo and trailer it strikes me as nice, but nothing special, so there's no reason for an item like this to replace or even add to what I've got.

There is no shortage of business card-sized peek wallets, so its nice to have options, and all of our mileages will vary Smile
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Darkness
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Agreed Chessmann.
ManchurianMan83
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Quote:
On Feb 28, 2014, Chessmann wrote:
Manchurian, you're engaging in this as much as Darkness Smile


I think you'll find I don't go around posting about things I have no interest in buying.
Not here or anywhere else for that fact.

Also, most of my posts on here or any topic are from the perspective of someone who owns the device being discussed and generally I try to offer opinions and genuine answers to questions by people who want to know more.

But other than that, you're quite right, I won't be engaging with Darkness anymore on this and he shouldn't even be posting anymore as he has now made it quite clear that this is not for him so there's no need for him to waste more of his time on this.


Quote:
On Feb 28, 2014, Chessmann wrote:
Personally, if a prop such as this will often require a second item, I would like that item to have more than a neutral effect on the effect, if possible (especially as there are other, similar, options that don't *ever* require an addition). That doesn't seem to be the case, here. The bag/whatever certainly doesn't seem to be problematic at all, and virtually anything can be justified. On the other hand, the extra item doesn't add anything to the effect, or give it an advantage.

So, what would set this apart (for me) would involve the look of the case - a highly polished, solid and stout high class metal case (adding engraved initials, perhaps) would likely cause me to add a metal case to my current leather as an option. From the photo and trailer it strikes me as nice, but nothing special, so there's no reason for an item like this to replace or even add to what I've got.

There is no shortage of business card-sized peek wallets, so its nice to have options, and all of our mileages will vary Smile


if you ask me, the trailer for this seriously undersells what this truly is and what it does.

You mention no shortage of peek wallets, I own a fair few of them.

I've invested more than my fair share in these things so I certainly know what the advantages and disadvantages are to them.
This one IMO in terms of method is something very special.

But you're quite right. If the card holder itself as an item is not for you then that's fine.

However as has already been mentioned by myself and others, the bag or any other extra item can VERY easily be worked out of the effect with a minimum of thought so it's really only a case of 'there if you need it' not 'there BECAUSE you need it'.

But I just wanted to reply and say I do feel that the trailer actually doesn't do this any justice because it's even cleaner than it looks on the trailer.
Chessmann
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On Feb 28, 2014, ManchurianMan83 wrote:

This one IMO in terms of method is something very special.



Yes, I'll admit I am very curious about how the method plays out.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Got this today and was demoed by David Loosley at Alakazam,really nice to of met you David and good to see Peter again there as well.I had a really great morning mixing with customers and had some great new trick's performed for me by Peter and David.Now to The Business (pun intented) nice, I like it and must get myself some more cards made up as I am running low,even thought of putting in my LUMINARIA card and perhaps coming up with an extra routine,i think with this, Any Nyman's WARLOCK could go with this device as well after doing the usual routine with it you could in fact get 3 spectators word's,so will post more when I have routined it,all the best.
Shane
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