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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Let the redeemed of The Lord say so (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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GlenD
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I appreciate the dialogue here very much. It is a good thing to review and reinforce what we believe and to share with brothers and sisters about important questions. I would simply add this... In the midst of all of our thoughts and uncertainties, do we love God? Are we giving Him our heart and soul, as best we can, to Him? Do we truly want to be with Him daily and throughout eternity? It is so easy to lose the eternal perspective on things. That's ultimately what He wants, our unconditional and freely given love back to Him in acknowledgement of who He is, what He has done for us and creating us in the first place. Some of my ramblings, sorry if I am off topic.

Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On Mar 3, 2014, Terry Holley wrote:
Hi Vlad,

In an earlier post you wrote, "To be frank, I found the comment that Terry made 'even in a non-Protestant' bible offensive."

I'm not sure why it offended you, as I was simply responding to your statement in another of your posts where you wrote, "Jesus and the Apostles gave us plenty of warnings that we cannot be complacent and think that we will enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. This is a dangerous fallacy that is sadly common among Protestantism (sorry!) but which dangerously takes certain verses out of context."

You called out Protestantism as promoting a "dangerous fallacy." My comment was only pointing out that I would refer to Ephesians 2:8-9 (and 10) in a non-Protestant Bible (a Bible used by non-Protestant faith communities), such as the Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible (EOB), the New American Bible, The New American Bible Revised Edition (The St. Joseph Bible), The Douay-Rheims Bible, The New World Translation, etc. I made this statement in oder to clarify that as far as I know, Protestants will accept most any respected version/translation of Ephesians 2:8-9 to show that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.

Also, I don't believe that Protestants would say anyoone would enter heaven by virtue of making a faith statement. I believe they would say you enter heaven by virtue of belief in Christ as explained in verses such as John 3:16 and John 11:25, where you will notice there is no mention whatsoever of works. Just hard for me to believe Jesus would not say what he meant and hold back on a key ingredient when it comes to eternal destiny.

John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 11:25-26 (NIV) - "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?'"

Hope this helps!

Terry


Hi Terry,

Your response is both gracious and informative. As for the Bible we Orthodox Catholics study, it was only recently published and what a happy day!! It is called The Orthodox Study Bible and there is excellent commentary provided much the same as Protestants would find in Strong's Concordance. One of the tricky things about reading the collection of books known collectively as The Bible is the accuracy of translations from Hebrew and ancient Greek. Just a quick example, in Genesis we read that man is given "dominion" over the earth. Unfortunately, dominion in the modern sense means something quite different than what it meant in Hebrew. The word actually meant stewardship, not domination or any sense of "rule" or a subduing of God's creation.

As for the other point, there are churches under the Protestant rubric that do believe in "once saved, always saved." Yet Scripture does not support that notion when all of Scripture is taken in its entirety. Now, I am in no way trying to proselytize, but, for history's sake, you might want to check out a series of podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio called Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy which discusses the inclusion of doctrines that are clearly not supported by Scripture. Mormonism for instance contends that Chris was created and yet we know from the Gospel of St. John that Christ was not created for Christ is the Word that became flesh as St. John writes. The Jehovah's Witnesses took this a dangerous step further in their Watchtower Bible which makes changes all through Scripture and one of the most damaging and blasphemous is the inclusion of the article "a" in the Gospel of St. John, thus making the verse into "and the Word was a God."

Lastly, the priest who conducted these podcasts was a former Southern Baptist minister so his perspective is rather unique and perhaps more appealing to someone of the Protestant tradition rather than someone like myself who grew up a Roman Catholic and then converted to the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church. On the surface, we and the Roman Catholics share similarities but, doctrinally, our understanding of grace, the understanding for us that the Holy Spirit does NOT proceed from the Father and the Son, but from the Father only - which is a significant difference for some and to others a tempest in the teapot, and other aspects such as our rejection of the juridical power of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) keeps us separated - a tragedy to be sure, as tragic as the separation between the Catholic [katolikos] (Roman and Orthodox) and Protestant traditions.

Best,
Vlad

PS: The Orthodox Bible contains not only the Old and New Testaments, but also the Deuterocanonical books as does the Roman Catholic bible and ours also includes second Maccabees which the Roman Catholics do not include. Just a bit of trivia for ya.
Danny Kazam
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I believe that once God saves you, and you believe as according to scripture, then you are always saved. I don't believe God saves you and then takes it away. If I believed that, I would have to except that there is more to do to keep my salvation, and I don't believe there is any scripture to support that theory.

However, I do believe that some think they are saved for many wrong reasons. They think all they have to do is say the sinners prayer, or go to church, or do good deeds, etc. They believe for all the wrong reasons. Jesus will say, "Away from me for I never knew you."

Some call themselves Christians but have no relationship with Christ. I believe they were never saved. Those God saves, He never leaves, nor forsakens them.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On Mar 10, 2014, Danny Kazam wrote:
I believe that once God saves you, and you believe as according to scripture, then you are always saved. I don't believe God saves you and then takes it away. If I believed that, I would have to except that there is more to do to keep my salvation, and I don't believe there is any scripture to support that theory.

However, I do believe that some think they are saved for many wrong reasons. They think all they have to do is say the sinners prayer, or go to church, or do good deeds, etc. They believe for all the wrong reasons. Jesus will say, "Away from me for I never knew you."

Some call themselves Christians but have no relationship with Christ. I believe they were never saved. Those God saves, He never leaves, nor forsakens them.


Danny,

I never said that God takes away salvation. What I am trying to say is that SOME evangelical and fundamentalist denominations as well as SOME non-denominationals believe in a concept of "once saved, always saved" in which, no matter what you do after you are "saved" you remain saved. This is not a belief that you will find surfacing until the 1980s. It was never believed in Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox Christianity before that. It is, rather, a doctrine that is unsupported by Scripture.

Scripture repeatedly speaks of salvation as a process - a lifelong process to be precise.

Best,
Vlad
Danny Kazam
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So, to clarify. Are you saying that when Jesus died on the Cross for the penalty of our sins it was not enough to save us from God's judgement? When is our process of salvation concluded? What if I believe that I am a sinner in need of God's forgiveness, turn from my sinful life and make Jesus the Lord of my life. Am I not saved by the grace of God? What more do I need to do in my life before I die that will gaurantee God's promise to me will be fulfilled?

I believe that if I die tomorrow, I will sleep until the day of resurrection of those who died in Christ. What is this process I must go through before I die, because once I am dead-I am dead.

My salvation is very important to be, and I am open to this discussion. What do I need to do to be saved outside of what Jesus told the rich man?
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Terry Holley
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Hey Vlad,

Yes, Scripture does refer to "salvation as a process."

But, the "salvation process" is misunderstood because one of the mistakes that many make is due to what is referred to as "illegitimate totality transfer" (believing that the meaning of a word as used in one particular context is the same meaning of the word when used in another context, regardless of the context). This is seen in how many interpret "salvation" always as "eternal salvation" when it may refer to "physical salvation". At other times the mistake is made by not identifying which aspect of God's salvation is being discussed (past, present, or future).

When I believe in Christ, I am saved from the penalty of sin (justification - a legal declaration that is instantaneous), I am being saved from the power of sin (sanctification - God's work in a Christian's life through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to make them more Christ-like) and I will be saved from the presence of sin (glorification - the future and final work of God upon Christians, where he transforms their mortal physical bodies into resurrected bodies).

Salvation is a process when looked upon in this way, but justification salvation is a point in time when one belives in Jesus as seen in Acts 16:30-31: He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved — you and your household.”

"Eternal security" not surfacing until the 1980's? I surmise that is a typo and you possibly meant the 1890's or some other fairly recent date. For me it surfaces in the dating of the Scripture. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of "whatever causes you to lose your salvation."

Add to that Romans 8:38-39 - "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for us and the work of Christ. As some have stated, "Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit."


Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Vlad_77
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For Terry and Danny:

Rather than cut and paste, this article explains what I am talking about in terms of process and it answers the question of "once saved, always saved." As you read the article please bear in mind two things:

1. I am by NO means trying to convert you.

2. The article cites Scripture - a LOT. And it is important to bear in mind that what is written in the article has been understood as what is necessary and this is passed down untarnished from Christ to His Apostles and so to the present day.

Special note to Terry, while not a typo, regardless if the once saved, always saved (and this means saved while ALIVE) - surfaced in the 1890s or 1980s, it is not a doctrine when taken in total by Holy Scripture that is supported. Rather, the process as you will read requires both the participation of God AND man.

Special note to Danny. As you will read, of course Christ's sacrifice is necessary. It is the Mormons who believe that Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient, not the ancient Church which lives today. In fact we state that Christ trampled down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life. Here is a link for you Danny (and perhaps Terry) that discusses at length the Sacrifice on the Cross: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/christcross.aspx

Here is the link: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_salvation.aspx

It is a long article and I do hope you will rad it and cross reference the Biblical citations that are provided with your own Bibles.

Yours in Christ,
Vlad

PS: Thanks guys for being open to a conversation. Again, this is not an attempt at conversion but rather a perspective of salvation as it was always understood from Christ to Pentecost and His Apostles and their disciples and on down through today and for the ages to come.
robvh
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For the record, I totally want to convert you so we can all be as united and strong as possible. Smile
Danny Kazam
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Thanks for that Vlad. When I get some quiet time I will give it a good read, and cross reference it. It will give me plenty to study. I love this kind of stuff.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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