After several years of searching, I finally found a Phantom Tube, made correctly and very heavy steel. Believe it or not, it was made in India for a Supplier in Spain.

I decided to do some research on loading production apparatus, and was really surprised not find suggested methods at all. Some suggestions on causing the next silk to make it available for the next silk, but not any method was explained how to put the most silks or production items in the smallest possible space. I even searched Rice Encyclopedia of Silk Magic CD, without success.

I have owned U.F. Grant's Ghost Tube which he called a Phantom Tube that for the finally water was poured out of the tube. I really never used it to do lack of a quantity of silks. So loading properly never really come up as a problem to work out.

Even Ade Duval only suggested using a table knife that had the edge ground smooth with the any cutting edges removed. Ade Duval also mentioned how to properly remove picture silks and silks with lettering on them. Again, not mention how to control the ends when deep into a container.

Taking that idea I went into the kitchen to look for possible loading tools. I have used for years a bamboo chop sticks with blunt ends to load my Duke's Dye Version into the narrow paper tube. I came across a Straight Icing Spatula with a wide blade and rounded ends. I believe this my work very well for the 9 - 1/8 X 4 - 3/4 inch Phantom Tube I purchased, do the diameter of the tube.

Ade Duval just mentioned the silk could be brought over the edge of the tube. I take this vague description to mean sort of a small zigzag movement. That is all I have found on this subject. This leaves a lot out, if one wants to mix small and large silks, along with say Bob Sanders "Line O' Silks" or the Line of Flags. This makes for additional problems.

I see the silk production as kind of a puzzle for the audiences, as more silks or items then can possibly be pulled out of the size of the apparatus.

Largest silks load first, followed by smaller and smaller silks. The smallest silks get produced first and then the silks become larger and larger as the production continues. The silks inside the tube are just the beginning, as we learned from Ade Duval. The silks that come later were never part of that first load, but were loaded in as other silks were coming out. The secret to Ade's huge productions was more than one tube was involved, although the audience was aware of only one being used.

Over the years, I've owned most of the P&L Phantom Tubes, Drum Head Tubes (and combinations). I inherited from Roy Mayer, his home made phantom tube (and matching ungimmicked tubes, for switching ala Ade (Amrein)Duval.

As a teen I "homemade" a copy of Merv Taylor's TAMBOR. I couldn't afford the "real one"! (later bought a used MT Tambor) One of my "prize posessions" is a DEMON WONDER BOX.
I'll explain how I use the "DWB" in my 20th Century Silk routine, in my book, which is almost finished!

The 'big thing' with any production prop is the load capacity compared to the visible size of the prop. (One of the factors for the success of Ade's act!)

In Victorian times, producing a bunch of silks, etc. was good theater! I can't remember how long it has been since I've seen a magician doing a silk production! Too often I saw,"back then" a slow, show stalling, (NOT show STOPPING) presentation of silks being dragged out of a prop. (sometimes the performer carefully showed both sides of the 12" silk as be displayed it!) YUK! A well known magician, now deceased, spent about 12 minutes,jerking 36" silks out of a square circle at an International Magicians Convention about 30 years ago. He was the closing act. He received a "fleeing ovation" (he was playing to the "hair cuts"!)

Here's a tip for producing (and automatically displaying) a silk streamer. When I did a phone promotion show tour in the '80s, I loaded the TAMBOR (first in, last out)with a 6' Dragon,then a 25' streamer, then some 36" picture silks, then a few 24" silks. BUT, the streamer was loaded "center first", so that the two ends came out first. My assistant and I each took one end and walked stage left and stage right, so that the entire 25' was displayed, filling the stage. He held his end tight, I stretched the silk taut, then released my end. The elasticity caused the streamer to 'fly" to him. He caught it and ducked into the wings, as I produced the 6' Dragon. Off stage, he covered an Abbott "Super" Botania with the streamer. He came back on as I tossed the Dragon over the Tambourine, (the tambourine was hanging vertically on a simple stand) I held out my hand and he held the streamer with the botania load over my hand. I grabbed the botania load, he jerked off the tube (under cover of the streamer) and we had a 'big finish' for the production.

Properly presented, silks "pack small and play big"! I'll tell the Ade Duval "story" in the book.

When I use the phantom tube, I load a string of 12" "half" silks (tied corner to corner) followed by one 18" silk into the phantom tube. The "switch tube" has a 6' butterfly or dragon with the two top corners sticking through the tissue about 2". I cap the ends of the first tube, then produce the 18" (a corner of which was twisted around the end corner of the string of 12"s) I glance back at the tube and pull out the end of the string. Holding the end, I pull an arms length out, then return to the tube and pull out another arm's length, until the string is out. Tossing the string on a prop table, I do the switch and now the #2 tube is in my hand. Two fingers of the hand holding the tube grasp one of the dragon corners, and the other hand grabs the other. I can jerk out the dragon and hold it spread out, in one quick motion. "TA DA!"

I load the string of 12" silks, using the Duval "butter knife".

Silks "pack small, and play big!"

Dick, I really appreciate your detailed stories as well as your advice. I love silk magic for the very reason you and some others (like Bob Sanders) say: Silk packs small and plays big. I don't like doing the Dream Bag as is. After I produce four boxes (I add an extra one), I produce a Line of Silks at the end followed by a large bouquet of feather flowers which also are "produced" from the bag. I either use Line of 9-inch or 12-inch Silks depending on which dream bag I use. I have usually used 3-4 silk routines in most of my acts.

I visualized your silk production from the phantom tube and "switch tube" and it truly warmed my heart. I had a smile visualizing it.

I can't wait for your book to be published. You have certainly wet my appetite with your stories and advice throughout your posts.

Thanks Jimmy for your very kind words. Re: "the" book!>> I can see the 'daylight' at the end of the tunnel! --and it's not the headlight of an approaching train!
It appears that thee and me "think alike". We both add that little "extra something"! Down in Louisiana they call it "lagniappe"!

The book is "the story of my life in magic" plus a gezillion stories of what the road is really like. I've written down my philosophy (and just plain thinking) on how to produce a show that will play anywhere for anybody. I know that there are some who wont agree with everything that I've written in this area, but I'm writing from my own experience. I'm also writing up presentations on many of the tricks and routines that I've used "since forever"!

Thanks guys, what I was kind of looking for was what would be the best method on loading. A comparison would be your pile of dirty cloths ready for the laundry. When they come back or wash - dry and fold them, the stack of folded cloths compared to the pile thrown on a heap is much much smaller.

So as in loading, the more you cram in the less can be loaded on one another, thus a very small production. So is the answer the small zigzag neatly (term used loosely) the answer to getting more in less space? So does neatness count when it comes to loading?

I plan to produce 16-18", 3-27" picture, 1-36" comedy picture, line O' flags large size. We will see later this week.

Is it better to zigzag fold each silk then place down into the compartment or just stuff a silk held by one corner. I would like to get the most in the least amount of space.

I am not currently planning an extra load, although the thought has entered my mind.

When producing a picture silk, twisting the ends would be the best way to bring the correct ends up to easily grab, correct? Twisting the last silk produced with the 2 ends across from each other to pull it out for display? What do you guys think?

Earl Edwards had a special fold he used to load a 50-foot Rice streamer into a Grant "Chink Can." Back in the 60's Earl had written it up and sent it to Harold Rice for what was then to be Volume IV of the Rice _Encyclopedia of Silk Magic_. The production of the streamer was preceded by a cascading "hat coil" production. Earl's write-up for the Chink Cans routine probably got lost at Silk King Studio along the way and never appeared anywhere in print. I know the details of loading the streamer and have used it myself to produce a 25-foot streamer from the Alumascreen (a Fabjance production item no longer available). If I ever get around to writing my own book, the fold for the 50-foot streamer will go into it.

Earl also had a Bogart Tube, which I felt was a fantastic production device. He and I used it to produce a 6-foot Rice dragon silk when we performed on the stage of his Magic Shop in Norfolk at IBM Ring 103 meetings. Details of the Bogart Tube were written up by Gibson in _Blackstone's Secrets of Magic_. It is a very expensive piece of apparatus today.

----- Sonny

I loved reading this discussion!
I have been closing one of my 45 minute shows with a silk production for over 30 years.... even to this day!
People do enjoy it!
It that lasts about 3 and a half minutes and frequently produces a standing ovation.
The secret? Never produce more silks than you can display entertainingly, keep the silks in motion, ( A flag on a flagpole is more visually interesting when the wind is moving it about), make sure the routine has a build (in tempo, size, dynamics, etc;), and use strong supportive music.

Anatole, do you think the Earl Edwards 'fold' is the same as the Paul Diamond ( Carl Rosini ) winder?

Regards- J.Neal

I literally got GASPS from the audience when producing a 6 foot Rice Butterfly silk from a simple, small, "examined" Paper Bag.

Thank you Karrell Fox for ALWAYS taking time to give me "THE GOOD STUFF" during my many trips to Abbott's Get-Togethers over the years!!!

JNeal, I'm not familiar with the Diamond/Rosini winder. But Earl's fold was not a "winding" fold at all. It was basically accordion-pleated. He would also sprinkle bits of fabric confetti into the folds as the streamer was pleated so that as the streamer came out of the cans there would be continuous flutters of small bits of confetti. Not the glitter confetti that is popular today. The fabric confetti was a little less messy and easier to sweep up after a show.

Earl once loaded a Chink Can with the 50-foot streamer and hat coils in preparation for a show that ended up being cancelled. A few months later he and Donna were booked for a show and--in spite of being loaded into the can for all that time--the streamer came out looking great! No noticeable wrinkles! (Earl owned The Magic Shop in Norfolk and only occasionally went on the road to perform their act. He and Donna did win Best Presentation and Best Assistant at an M.A.E.S. convention back in 1964.)

----- Sonny

Sonny, as mentioned previously the material for Rice's 4th volume by Rice Crone is not lost. Ruth is just setting on the material. I suppose there is a number of reasons, but I just have to face the fact that I will never get to read these tricks by many of the previous professionals that donated their knowledge to be shared.

Rainboguy, some like paper bags when not a professional (I know, I know, Richardi used paper bags.), it certainly has it place in the birthday party business. I could not bring myself to pull out a paper bag, I am just to embarrassed to do so. Although I do carry my Dreibeek Die in a paper bag. Call me strange, but I just like some magic props, and I don't want to look unprofessional and amateurish to those I perform in front of.

It's interesting that Ruth would still be "sitting on the material" that had been sent in for Volume 4. You don't sound optimistic about it being published anytime soon, Bill, since you say "I will never get to read these tricks by many of the previous professionals that donated their knowledge to be shared."

I think I understand what Bill is saying when he wrote that he just likes some magic props. I know some purists say that "a real magician" wouldn't use something like a square circle or a phantom tube to produce something because they look like magicians' apparatus rather than anything the audience would be familiar with from "the real world." But magicians are _supposed_ to be different from Muggles!
;-)

----- Sonny

I need to talk with Ruth about getting this stuff done. There are treasures that need to be preserved.

Richard

Sonny and Richard, I have had an email discussion with Ruth concerning this, and the final response after suggesting some avenues to pursue was no response. I leave it at that, I respect her thoughts, whatever they may be.

On a continuing note, after spending several hundred dollars on silks, I just cannot justify pulling them out of a paper bag, or even a rolled magazine.

I can only guess that Rainboguy buys his silk scarves at the dollar store, which is perfectly alright, in my opinion, but this is not what I am going for in a fast paced fury of silk scarves, streamers, and picture silks production.

I have always been intrigued by U.F. Grant's Devil's Newspaper, never purchased but it is in the Rice Encyclopedia and if I could find the right products to reveal, that would be a secondary choice, as it has potential for visual comedy.

Some of this just comes down to aesthetic preferences.

Bill Hegbli:

A couple of things you may want to consider:

1. Paper Bags in and of themselves are not stupid things to use when doing Magic. If they are, perhaps you might want to tell Mac King that his "dissapearing head" bit using a paper bag makes him a cheap and soddy Magician. When Karrell Fox "tipped me" on using a common paper bag as a switching and production device, I thanked him. Most magicians, myself included, consider the late Karrell Fox as a LEGEND of Magic.

2. I use the nickname of Rainboguy here due to my love of silk magic, and in particular, of a passion for Rainbow Silks. You have NO IDEA what I have in my collection of Magic Props. And I find your comment of "I can only guess that Rainboguy buys his silk scarves at the dollar store", I find to be particularly rude and insulting. Just because you do not agree with someone, Bill Hegbli, does NOT give you the right to be rude, offensive and insulting.

You know that on the Café there are those that just would not agree with anyone having a preference for themselves.


I am sorry you feel that way, that no one has a right to mention your name and what you possibly meant by your posting. But, I was right in that you would jump to some famous person using paper sacks, I chose Richardi as an example, so you picked Mac King. Same point I knew you would jump to and tried to "head you off at the pass" with, but you could not resist.

I only used Rainbow guy to refer to your post, but if you feel like you were attacked on some point, I cannot control your very negative thinking. Have a nice day and think kind thoughts. Pat the dog and kiss the kids and wife, maybe that will help you feel better today.

Well, you killed this topic, didn't you. You created a post that had nothing to do with MY topic, and then slammed my use of a Phantom Tube. Did I jump all over you for not responding to the topic question. I don't think so.

Hopefully "lack of response" does not mean the same thing as "no" or "never." When I was contacted by Stephen Minch about illustrating the Alex Elmsley books, Minch told me that Elmsley was not optimistic about having a book of his magic published because he had been disappointed in the past when others had approached him about putting his ouvre in print but failed to carry through with such a project. But as Minch and I worked on the books, Minch would send copies of his text and my illustrations to Elmsley--and Alex quickly saw that this time it looked like someone was serious about and dedicated to preserving the output of his life in magic. The result? Alex's love of magic (which had nearly vanished) was rekindled, resulting in a beautiful two-volume set of books published as _The Collected Works of Alex Elmsley_. The books were followed by a set of four DVDs starring Elmsley himself! The books are now regrettably out-of-print and commanding premium prices at Internet used book services. But I am proud of the part I played in seeing that the books became a reality.

----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez

Here is a bit of reference from almost exactly 10 years ago! http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=54

The Rosini Silk Winder is discussed. I saw Paul Diamond do his Symphony of Silks lecture in the mid 1970s and recall seeing him use that winder to put a HUGE amount of silk into a soda can!! Here is a reference to one made by Tannens. Clever use of a familiar item! http://www.internationalmagicauction.com......id=92407

I understand that this thread is about the Phantom Tube... I have my own methods using the eraser end of a pencil and wrapping the string of silks around the cone. It's worked for me, although the silks are not produced separately. I have seen however, a method by which the trailing end of one silk is twisted around the leading end of the next silk being loaded. This insured that the end of the next silk would be pulled to an accessible point just before the ends untwisted themselves, freeing each to be produced singly.

There are so many different devices that are used to produce silks, and almost as many methods of loading/folding/winding, to accommodate the particular device. I recently acquired a Brunel White hat that is designed to produce silks. Although no instructions came with the hat, I have developed a method whereby a very large number of sizable silks can be produced from the hat individually, with the luxury of showing the hat empty at any point.

For those interested, L & L epublishing has just released the Paul Diamond videos for download. The most important is Reel Magic Video and Symphony of Silks video. Highly recommend anyone to download these video if interested in doing silk magic.