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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Scam School Exposure (41 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Pop Haydn
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Exposure is an inevitable product of the popularity of magic. Once the era's great illusions have become well-known, and therefore a cliche, people are interested in the solution. The method becomes more commercial than the performance. As magic becomes less popular and more rare, exposure will not be of much interest to anyone.
Dannydoyle
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Absolutely and with tech moving forward at the rate it is this seems worse. But even Blackstone had to deal with it.

As you said it is a byproduct of popularity of the medium.

The key is to be more than just the sum of our secrets.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Pop Haydn
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When magic ceases to be popular with the young, they will cease posting videos. When it comes back in popularity, those old videos will look unhip, silly, and in bad resolution. No one but the resolute will study them. The good secrets and performances will be buried by the bad. You will need a guide to find the pony in this huge pile of internet video.
mastermindreader
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TerribleWizard- I fail to see how SELLING books and effects is the same as indiscriminately exposing other people's effects for free on the Internet or other media. The former requires an investment and at least a moderately serious interest. The latter does not.
Terrible Wizard
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Danny:
All my thoughts take into account being the other side. It doesn't change my position. I think I would benefit, as would the majority, if there was a stricter code amongst magi. If the situation I envisage existed then I would have had to learn entry-level magic from the range of currently existing publicly available sources, proved my sincerity to a magic society, signed an agreement not to expose, and be willing if I was caught exposing secrets to have my membership revoked (and thus lose access to many sources). I am ok with that.

Pop:
That may well be true - time will tell. However, I feel that even passing exposure tends to lessen the richness of the magic experience of the spectator, and can lead to issues which trouble the performer - especially the beginning or less competent performer, or the one who works amongst a more hostile environment.

Mastermindreader:
I am not, nor have not, argued that selling is equivalent to exposure. Only that INDISCRIMINATE selling, especially through the mass marketing opportunities made available by the internet and globalisation - especially without any form of checks - does nothing to reduce exposure. And that if people want to curb exposure then magic creators can take the initiative to do just that by restricting their sales.
Dannydoyle
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Why do you think you get to set standards for everyone?

Time is better spent with worry about our own behavior.

Like I said maybe you never make it into the room in the first place.

Also if exposure worries you so much then there us the option of creating your own material and not selling it. Then exposure does not vex you so.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
silvercup
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Quote:
On Dec 4, 2014, Pop Haydn wrote:
I've sold almost all the routines I have created.


If I may ask the question, why?
Terrible Wizard
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Dannydoyle:

I don't. I'm not. What's wrong with discussion and persuasion, especially if one believe a certain course of action would bring benefits to people? Note, I'm simply picking up on the issue of people complaining then not doing anything about it. Some complain and do nothing, others do nothing but don't complain. I think a better way is doing something. Why so angry and accusatory?
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2014, silvercup wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 4, 2014, Pop Haydn wrote:
I've sold almost all the routines I have created.


If I may ask the question, why?


Because I think they are a valuable addition to magic. They solve a lot of problems with classic presentations and express what I believe to be important ideas in magic. I want other magicians to be able to take these and run with them. Most of them I have been doing since the 1960's. I have performed most of them for many years before I released them, so I had plenty of time to polish and put my stamp on them.

The Linking Ring routine and the Mongolian Pop Knot were developed during my street performing days in the Sixties and early Seventies. The Teleportation Device was invented in 1981, and I didn't release it until 1994.

I released them because I don't want the work and discoveries I have made to be lost. I want other performers to be able to copy or take from them.

Hopefully, my wife will be able to continue to have an income if something were to happen to me by selling my videos and books.

The income from the sales has been helpful as a sort of small but steady income as opposed to the feast or famine of performing. Lecturing and selling is a small part of my income, but important.

Besides, I love seeing my routines being done by other performers. I enjoy watching them like a writer might enjoy seeing his play being performed.

Why would I not want to share? I don't believe that the number of guys doing my routines has ever taken a dime out of my pocket, and has brought in quite a few of them.

Besides all that, in this industry publishing is the only way to protect your material, and let people know whose it really is...
silvercup
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Thanks for the answer Pop!
I've allways thought not much $ would be made from sales due to copying and whatnot and the bulk of the reasoning would be one of "get my material out there", "see my work done by others", "proper crediting" etc.
I don't have much understanding of the want for recognition either but do understand that it is a motivating force for others.

Why would you not want to share? I'm pretty sure you are selling, not sharing, or sharing at a price at least. That you don't freely distribute your work indicates that money does play a part, or would simply putting it out there without a price feel like/constitute exposure to you?
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2014, Terrible Wizard wrote:
Dannydoyle:

I don't. I'm not. What's wrong with discussion and persuasion, especially if one believe a certain course of action would bring benefits to people? Note, I'm simply picking up on the issue of people complaining then not doing anything about it. Some complain and do nothing, others do nothing but don't complain. I think a better way is doing something. Why so angry and accusatory?



Why so quick to accuse others of anger?

Why is the idea of creating your own work so daunting you feel the need to protect anger on me?

Seriously you can control your own actions and should not judge others. Indiscriminate selling is a judgment. Why so quick to judge others and put a solution to a non existent problem?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Terrible Wizard
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Danny:

Because I wanted to tell you off for being accusatory.

I'm not angry. You are now just playing a game of reversing what I say. There is no projection at work here.

I am not capable of creating my own magic work. That doesn't bother me.

This is not a non existent problem, at least the evidence on this forum suggests many are excised by the issue of exposure. You are now just throwing out random statements as a form of rebuttal.

I'm not being quick to judge others, you just don't like disagreement it seems. Stop being childish. Or not. Either way it's irrelevant.
Dannydoyle
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I was not angry in the least. You projected that.

You seem to be the one acting childish and stomping your feet when things do not go your way.

So if you are not capable of creating your own magic what gives you the right to decide what those who are capable of doing so end up doing with their creations? You should be happy secrets trickle down to you at all.

If a creator wants to give away all his stuff for free on you tube that is their prerogative. Not creating you should get no vote.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Terrible Wizard
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I disagree. So we have impasse.
Dannydoyle
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There is nothing to disagree about. Creators can do what they like with their creations. You have no moral or legal position to control what they do with them.

Where do you get the idea that just because you think there is this brotherhood that requires others to act in a way that you deem correct?

Lets look at other art forms. Music for example. If a writer wants to write music for free do you find it permissible?

Or a chef creates recipe that is simple and amazing that everyone in the restaurant business can benefit from. It's he wrong to release his creation for free on the internet to anyone who will want to read it thus depriving the other brother chefs of using it and making money? Is it his obligation to make sure other chefs can do this or is he allowed to follow his own path and it is their obligation to follow their own? Should the other chefs complain and try to persuade others?

Oh and if he wants to this chef can indiscriminately sell also. Why is this wrong and if not why is magic somehow different?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Terrible Wizard
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Still disagree. Still impasse. I'm not sure there's much point engaging with each other on this issue any more - I think we have exhausted our points. I'm happy to agree to disagree.
0pus
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Wow. You think that someone who creates something of value should NOT have the right to realize that value as he sees fit?

Amazing.
AaronSterling
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2014, Pop Haydn wrote:
The income from the sales has been helpful as a sort of small but steady income as opposed to the feast or famine of performing. Lecturing and selling is a small part of my income, but important.

I think this is a point that a lot of people who work "real" jobs have a hard time getting their heads around. There's something to be said for a regular, guaranteed paycheck, even if it's small compared to what someone might be used to. If you're only paid when you have a gig, you never know if yesterday was your last performance and you'll never work again. It can be really stressful, especially if you or a loved one gets sick and you think you "need to" cancel on a client. Maybe you shouldn't cancel, no matter what, because maybe that client will never call you again.

So performers diversify, into lectures, sales, consulting, motivational speaking. This is even if they're good. If Ammar appeared on Scam School, it must have been because of a business decision, where he thought the benefits outweighed the negatives.

I see the solution to the YouTube exposure problem as: perform so you are entertaining even if the audience has an inkling of how it's done. Personality-directed act, instead of secret-directed act.
Slim King
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Here is my problem ... If you invent a real cool effect... Sell it to a bunch of your friends and family for a healthy sum to keep it out of the hands of pirates and other exposers ... Then ... after getting all that cash, you sell out to Youtubers for free... Making everyone's investment worthless ... That's just not ethical! Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Terrible Wizard
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0pus: could you please quote the post where I discussed 'rights'? I think you'll find, if you read through my posts on this thread, that my simple argument has always been:

If exposure is a problem (IMHO it is), then a way to reduce it is for magic creators to be more selective who they sell to.

That is all.

Why such an idea seems to arouse such animosity and condescension I have no idea.
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