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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts 
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On Mar 6, 2014, R.S. wrote: Christians see it as a religious symbol. SO WHAT? People are entitled to see it however they want. Lets not pretend that they do not have that right shall we?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Pecan_Creek Veteran user The Nation of TEXAS! 323 Posts
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I'm not pretending.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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Seems a shame that people are squabbling over this. Almost missing the point completely....
I suppose the question is, if I were to die in a similar tragedy with thousands of others, would I object to relatives of other victims erecting some symbol, relevant to their religion. No, of course not. Ridiculous. These things are primarily about helping the living, given that the victims are already somewhat dead. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts
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I think that Iga should close the ninja museum, lest everyone who visits be converted to nin-po and the world become populated with invisible assassins in pajamas.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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They've already infiltrated, it's too late. Shadows everywhere. D*mn rustling.
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rockwall Special user 762 Posts
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If having this cross in the museum is causing Dyspepsia and Headaches among atheists, doesn't that count for something?
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/kelly-battles......adaches/ |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts
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On Mar 7, 2014, R.S. wrote: Would not your question be better, if asked to an American atheist?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts
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R.S. I'll answer it. If any of those items was found and in the form of the symbols you mention as a natural result of the disaster, which would be highly unlikely, than sure, they should be part of the museum. All should be welcome. So the question is pointless.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 7, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote: So then you and I agree on this. Apparently, Aces doesn't agree with us when he says, "It seems that the American Atheists are the ones making it a religious symbol." So, to Aces, why on earth would atheists, who don't believe in any gods, see a hunk of metal as a religious symbol??? And as my link has already shown, it's the religious who were the ones who seized on this and made it a religious symbol. Quote:
People are entitled to see it however they want. Lets not pretend that they do not have that right shall we? I agree. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts
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On Mar 7, 2014, acesover wrote: Well, there's no American Atheists here to answer, so I'm asking you. Care to answer? If you're OK with a giant "Christian" cross being erected and being hailed as a symbol of hope for the WTC, then surely you would have no problems if instead they found and erected a giant crescent "Muslim" symbol as a symbol of hope for the WTC, right? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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It's always nice when people who don't believe understand the humanity of those that do; when the reverse happens it is also gratifying.
This is sad. |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts
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On Mar 7, 2014, Bob1Dog wrote: Thanks for answering Bob1dog. Do you think ALL Christians feel the same as you? Would ALL Christians welcome a single solitary Muslim or Buddhist symbol as the symbol of hope for the WTC? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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I've never heard of gay people, black people, gypsies or communists complaining about the Jewish imagery at memorials commemorating...
No. Godwin's law forbids me. Really. Why any self respecting atheist would make this an issue is quite beyond me, speaking as one myself. If you see it as a hunk of metal, that's all it is: a fetish for those who are consoled by such symbols. Nothing for an atheist to worry about. But human consolation is worth caring about. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Tomsk192 I agree completely, though not speaking as an atheist.
R.S. why do ALL Christians or people of faith have to agree? That way when you find just ONE who complains that is what you hang your hat of hatred on. You are looking for a reason to argue. It is that simple. Problem tomsk is that everyone has their own "truth", and feel superior to those who do not see it. You and I do not wish to foist our belief systems on one another and can just agree to disagree. (But don't worry, IF there is an afterlife, and IF it rocks like I suspect it does you,Payne and R.S. are all going to be there regardless! MY God is not exclusionary of those He does not choose to give the gift of faith to. What a HORRIBLE thing to do that would be!) Anyhow I digress sorry.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts
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On Mar 7, 2014, R.S. wrote: I think all good Christians would answer as I have, and I'm not even a good Christian, though I'm always trying to be better. Shouldn't we all?
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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Thank you, Danny, and I genuinely hope that you are right. I always hesitate to label myself as an atheist, or any other term, for that matter, which is so prone to abuse. I don't like the sort of militant atheism that some people aspire to, but being a pedant, I'm not quite agnostic either. Funnily enough, people less pedantic than me would probably call me an agnostic; but faith is such a personal thing anyway, it wouldn't bother me much at all.
The very fact that I devote much thought to the matter, is grounds for a Jesuit to proclaim me as being on the verge, so to speak. Anyway, sorry for the digression. I suppose I am preaching tolerance for humanity, as I learned it in my very Christian upbringing. I am no relativist, but an issue like this is a matter of personal conviction, and as long as no 'stones' are being thrown, which I think they are not, then there is no harm. Why would a serious atheist, least of all a militant one, bother about such things? It's just human aggression, using a particularly inappropriate battleground. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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I'm pretty sure there are very few issues on which "all Christians" or "all atheists" agree.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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I hope this post does not provoke anyone, it is just a thought.
For some atheists, the 'first base' here is that 9/11 was perpetrated by religious fanatics; the 'second base' is outrage that a Christian symbol has been created, partially at least, from the wreckage of the tragedy in which many non-believers died, alongside believers of different faiths; the 'third base' relates to the lack of comparably prominent symbols being displayed to represent the equally important 'others' who perished with different faiths, or with no faith at all. So far so good, perhaps. However, the emotive side of the issue displays two distinct positions, which are poignantly similar in their genesis: a) 'I am an atheist, how could you show this disrespect? How dare you honour my dead with these religious symbols? Religion is the cause of it all.' [This does not apply to all atheists] b) 'I am a Christian, and I derive hope and consolation from the very idea of this twisted metal cross. How dare you hijack my grief? Why should my beliefs offend you? I'm honouring my dead in the best way I know how.' [This does not apply to all Christians] What both these crudely drawn groups have in common is that it means something to them very deeply. If I were managing this issue, I would try to find a solution where somehow every victim was honoured similarly. Perhaps there is indeed room for an 'empty space'. A not unconnected recollection I have is being taken to see the Vietnam Memorial Wall in DC, as a child. That was very moving, and I have never forgotten it. Everybody should be included, including the Muslims for whom that day started as another day at their office in the twin towers. Simon Wiesenthal was always explicit in his view that 'mass murder' is a misleading and perhaps irreverent term. What happened was the individual murders of 2,997 unique human beings. Apologies if I have caused any offence. Peace to you all. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts
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On Mar 7, 2014, R.S. wrote: While I cannot answer for Bob and Aces, I can answer for myself: I wouldn't have a different opinion; I think that any such symbol would be appropriate in the museum. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts
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On Mar 7, 2014, R.S. wrote: Again, I cannot answer for Bob, but I'm certain that not all Christians would feel the same. There are many, many stupid Christians. (To be fair, there are probably many, many stupid Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and so on . . . and atheists . . . as well.) |
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Posted: Mar 7, 2014 04:50 pm 
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