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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » An argument with the Bible and mentalism! Please reply » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

vootrage
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Recently, me and my dad have had some big discussions about me usuing mentalism in my act. I make the argument that all psychics are shams and there is not a real psychic out there that is truly doing something supernatural. He comes back at me with scripture in the Bible that talks about psychics and how they had true supernatural abilities. He also says that by saying there are no real psychics I am calling Jesus a liar.

Some who has knowledge on the subject please help me out. Thanks.
BroDavid
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To deny that spirits (supernatural beings or communications with supernatural beings) exist, is to deny God, The Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, there is also a dark side to the spirit world. Satan is real, and so are many he commands. The Bible confirms this.

Now back to magic and presentation of mentalism in your show:

In my opinion, it is not necessary to say that "nobody" is a real psychic, just because you are making it clear that you will not use psychic or supernatural powers to obtain what appears to be the same results of many who would claim supernatural powers. So it is a matter of presentation. Read for yourself and decide what the Bible teaches about this issue and then develop your statement of explanation around those facts.

I believe that Satan exists and that there are those who really are in concert with him in the powers of darkness. But I also believe that there are far more folks who claim to be, than really are. And whether they simply claim to be, or are actually in league with Satan, they are to simply be avoided. And it really does nothing to support your performance by claiming they don't exist. You can certainly frame your statement with "Most of those who claim mind reading and magic powers are simply tricking you, and I will show you one way that can be done." Or some such more open ended-statement.

Bottom line,

The spirit world is real and thank God that we can worship Him in spirit and truth. And thank God also that, in His word, he warns us against Satan and such powers.

Just make it clear that you aren't doing spirit talk and other psychic activities and you will get just as much applause as if you claim there are no real spirit talkers.

Hope that helps a little.

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
"V"
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Strictly as a Biblical issue (I'm about to start work and don't have too much time for a longer response) the only incidences I can recall from Scripture about what we would call psychic instances other than those provided by God tend to be associated with "the other side," i.e. the unclean spirits who recognized Christ for who he was: the possessed girl who followed Paul around announcing his mission (until he cast out the spirit and incidentally ruined the girl's owners' money-making prediction scheme); and the magicians at Pharaoh's court who replicated some (but not all) of Moses' miracles.

Got to dash, working day starts in 5...
Bill Palmer
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There are a number of ways to approach this. One is to get hold of some of the Amazing Randi's books, especially those dealing with the frauds he has exposed, and let him read them.

Another is to ask him, "What about simple deduction and scientific logic?"

Yet another is to let him read some of the work Ray Hyman has done on the subject.

Things have changed much in the 2000 years or so that have passed since the Bible was written. Some cases that most people would have called demonic possession are now called schizophrenia. This is not to say that it doesn't exist. It's just that not all of the cases that resemble it are.

Satan is more likely to come to you in the vestments of a priest than in a red suit with horns, a pitchfork and a tail.
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Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2004-01-06 21:46, vootrage wrote:
Recently, me and my dad have had some big discussions about me usuing mentalism in my act. I make the argument that all psychics are shams and there is not a real psychic out there that is truly doing something supernatural. He comes back at me with scripture in the Bible that talks about psychics and how they had true supernatural abilities. He also says that by saying there are no real psychics I am calling Jesus a liar.

Some who has knowledge on the subject please help me out. Thanks.

I co-authored the book that I have mentioned before in this forum to answer the very questions you raise. It's titled Astrology and Psychic Phenomena. Check it out.

Vootrage, PM me with your mailing address and I'll send you a complimentary copy.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Daniel Faith
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There are many frauds out there to be sure but if God has seen fit to give someone the gift of seeing into the future or whatever, we are not to question it but care must be taken that the gift is from God and not Satan!

Personally I have never met a real psychic but I know they do exist. All things are possible through God!!
Daniel Faith
BonzoTheClown
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Quote:
Another is to ask him, "What about simple deduction and scientific logic?"

Which can at best say there is little repeatable evidence. It can't prove something doesn't exist.

Quote:
Some cases that most people would have called demonic possession are now called schizophrenia. This is not to say that it doesn't exist. It's just that not all of the cases that resemble it are.

Who's to say the condition isn't caused by demons in the first place? Smile I suppose to a Christian Jesus' ability was not down to supernatural abilities anyway if God is considered to be a natural force.

Personally I'm a non-believing atheist but I also consider that to say "be careful it could be a gift from Satan" is flawed...It would depend on what you used that gift for that determines whether it's an "evil" thing.

Vootrage, you can't argue against belief...all you can do it put across your point of view.

Marc Climens
John LeBlanc
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Some people may consider God a "natural force" only in the sense that, being creator, anything He does is natural but He has worked "unnatural" miracles, as found in the Bible.

Quote:
Personally I'm a non-believing atheist...

I'm glad you answered my unasked question. I'm going to assume you have a sincere interest in learning what is gospel magic and that you are not here simply to disrupt our otherwise wonderful little corner of The Café for some of us.

So, if I may remind you, this little corner of The Magic Café is for discussing gospel magic which, by its very definition, acknowledges that God the father sent His son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth to this earth to be our sacrificial lamb.

Very simply put, gospel magic exists to support, point out, illustrate, or pass on the following:
  1. Everyone has sinned. (And, if you're like me, continue to do so.)
  2. Sin is the transgression of the law.
  3. The penalty for sin is death.
  4. God sent His only son, Jesus Christ, to pay the penalty for that sin on our behalf.
That, in a nutshell, is partly the Good News—the gospel. That's what we (or what we should) keep in mind any time we put ourselves to the task of performing gospel magic. Magic that deals with a religious point of view is not gospel magic unless it involves the beliefs numbered above.

Quote:
Vootrage, you can't argue against belief...all you can do it put across your point of view.

Indeed. So I'm curious to know what is your interest in gospel magic?

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
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"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
Rob Johnston
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I have encountered this problem before, though not with my own father. The problem is ignorance. They don't know what magic is...it is not as if we are evocated the dark spirits or anything.

Magic is misunderstood it seems.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
BonzoTheClown
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Fundementalism is rare amongst Christian sects in the U.K. and apart from a few branches its more liberal and less focused on dogma. Thus what might apply to the U.S. "Bible-belt" as far as religious magic with a message is concerned, would be inappropriate on the most part here.

Not surprisingly there are similarities, because of course there is a common narrative, but interpretation does vary. This leads on to why someone with multicoloured hair and a blue nose has intruded into the internet's own exclusive brethren...

Every so often I get asked to perform for various religious groups and while it is not my desire to preach with my entire act, would like to incorporate the occasional effect with a message when performing for such groups. I feel the best starting place for exploring this is the gospel magic section of The Magic Café.

Marc Climens
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