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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Our treatment of animals (9 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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kambiz
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On Apr 14, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
If you don't think that consuming animals is natural, you really need to do some research. We may do it a little differently, but killing other animals for food is perfectly natural. We are omnivores by nature.



How do you know that we are omnivores?

Kam

Our digestive system has elements for digesting both plants and meats.


Yes indeed we can digest ELEMENTS of meat, just like we can digest ELEMENTS of plastics and metals. Doesn't make us naturally plastic and metal eaters too Zach Smile

I'm not sure how our digestive system is designed to eat meat when it is established now that meat consumption causes inflammation in the body.

The inflammatory free diet is now established to be meat-free, high fish protein, high fruit and veg and gluten, MSG, and alcohol free.

I can show the papers for these things if you wish.

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
magicfish
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
If you don't think that consuming animals is natural, you really need to do some research. We may do it a little differently, but killing other animals for food is perfectly natural. We are omnivores by nature.



How do you know that we are omnivores?

Kam

Our digestive system has elements for digesting both plants and meats.


Yes indeed we can digest ELEMENTS of meat, just like we can digest ELEMENTS of plastics and metals. Doesn't make us naturally plastic and metal eaters too Zach Smile

I'm not sure how our digestive system is designed to eat meat when it is established now that meat consumption causes inflammation in the body.

The inflammatory free diet is now established to be meat-free, high fish protein, high fruit and veg and gluten, MSG, and alcohol free.

I can show the papers for these things if you wish.

Kam

Fish is meat.
kambiz
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On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote:
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On Apr 14, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
If you don't think that consuming animals is natural, you really need to do some research. We may do it a little differently, but killing other animals for food is perfectly natural. We are omnivores by nature.



How do you know that we are omnivores?

Kam

Our digestive system has elements for digesting both plants and meats.


Yes indeed we can digest ELEMENTS of meat, just like we can digest ELEMENTS of plastics and metals. Doesn't make us naturally plastic and metal eaters too Zach Smile

I'm not sure how our digestive system is designed to eat meat when it is established now that meat consumption causes inflammation in the body.

The inflammatory free diet is now established to be meat-free, high fish protein, high fruit and veg and gluten, MSG, and alcohol free.

I can show the papers for these things if you wish.

Kam

Fish is meat.


I agree Smile

I'm not pro or against meat. I do eat meat myself, but I think similarly to Lobo that with sufficient research, science will confirm a completely meat-free (including fish) diet as the most harmonious diet for the human body.

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
magicfish
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I respectfully disagree. Nothing could be more harmonious (for me) than picking my own wild edibles. Wild vegetables, fungi, fruit, and meat. Nor could any human diet be healthier.
kambiz
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On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Nothing could be more harmonious (for me) than picking my own wild edibles. Wild vegetables, fungi, fruit, and meat. Nor could any human diet be healthier.



I fully respect that opinion magicfish Smile
If you asked me today, that would be my ideal diet too.

But in 100 years time.....maybe things will be different, maybe....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
ZachDavenport
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I don't think people care enough about their health, assuming it is unhealthy as suggested, to stop eating meat. Some do, but in general I don't think humans do.
Reality is a real killjoy.
stoneunhinged
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I am convinced that a steady and relentless diet of meat is unhealthy, regardless of what those appealing to religion, evolution, or FDA guidelines might suggest. I have read tons of evidence that suggests otherwise. Eat lots of fruit and veggies and lots of green plants and fill your belly with unprocessed foods. Then, if your ethics allow, eat a bit of meat. But the idea that we have to eat meat to be healthy is a myth. We can live without it, and there is so much evidence to show that we can live healthy lives without meat that it is thunderingly clear that the burden of proof lies on those who don't think so.

But, you know, most people have opinions without reading a lot of books and articles and stuff. They just hear it and believe it.

Lobo and I are both vegan (Lobo by ethical conviction, me by health conviction; Lobo 100%, me 98%, because I cheat now and then). I've never met Lobo (because we both are prone to going to Vegas precisely when the other is in Southern California), but I have the impression that his body and mind are not stilted by a lack of meat in his diet. I know I'm not.

To Landmark: see, this is where I *do* understand your objection to my references to "nature". Some think that if God or evolution gave us a taste for meat and the teeth and digestive systems to consume it, that eating meat is "natural" and therefore a good thing. But this makes my point, doesn't it? What is "natural" is NOT necessarily GOOD. BUT: if good, strong, hard science tells us that our diets are healthy or unhealthy, then maybe we ought to listen. Nature is telling us what healthy is. If we think that healthy=good, then nature has set the standard.
funsway
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I often have to chew on Stone's posts to find something tasteful to me (joke)

but in this last posting I find a plate full of delicious morsels (I can agree with everything and that is a fact hard to swallow)

some additional thoughts for desert ...

apparent the human ability to convert fat directly into either quick energy or storage is a new phenomenon ( 30,000 years or so)
So, our bodies are still having a "love affair" with this ability and might produce a craving having nothing to do with health, or practicality or divine intervention.

plants are the dominant life form on this planet and all animals exist to transport seeds around and fertilize the ground with slow-release sun energy pellets.
Whether you consume plants or animal substance you are only processing storage batteries for sun energy and moving trace elements around.

Studies indicate that if you do everything perfectly with diet, exercise, moderate abuse and active mind -- you MIGHT add two years to you "normal" life expectancy.
Now, if those last two years of life are spent regretting what you did to get there ...

Yes, we should all eat less animal substance and more vegetable. Now if veggies just tasted like they did when I was kid I would be more excited.

But meat, especially beef and fish are less tasteful also (and heathy) -- put enough salt on it and you will never know, of course.

I guess a diet of beer and potato chips is a reasonable veggie diet. That's what I plan on when 100+

(I chose my parents well)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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stoneunhinged
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On Apr 15, 2015, funsway wrote:
(I can agree with everything and that is a fact hard to swallow)



LOL! IT just goes to show that our disagreements are nothing personal. We really do just happen to usually disagree with each other. It doesn't make us bad people, and it wouldn't prevent our enjoying a beer together.

Cheers, Ken: Smile


On the point about adding two years to one's life: my goal isn't really to live longer. My goal is to not be dependent on pills and operations and medical care in my later years. My parents, my parents-in-law, and my music partner Hans and his wife--all of them spend an inordinate amount of time and energy and money on health problems. When I'm in my sixties, seventies, and eighties I want to be jumping around pill-less and with energy and elan. I don't want blood pressure medicine or Viagra. Right now I do between 200 and 300 push-ups a day and 400 crunches. I want to do that when I'm 85. I want to be like Jack LaLanne. I am convinced that not eating meat (and very little dairy; where I "cheat" is with cheese and home-made kefir)will keep me healthier. It has a cool side effect: cows, pigs, and chickens think I'm a nice guy.
Magnus Eisengrim
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LOL Ken and Jeff. Good stuff.

I am very sympathetic to vegetarianism and veganism (though I am neither) mainly on ethical grounds. One thing is abundantly clear: most of us in the west eat an f-tonne of meat in proportion to the rest of our diet, especially in North America and Australia. I suspect it's because we live under the illusion that we are the fortunate inhabitants of the land of plenty, and we are celebrating our good fortune every day. (Which I think is pretty much what Stone means when he says that Americans want to live like Elvis.)

Anyway, I have a sneaking suspicion that walking, cycling and using public transportation (instead of driving) will do more to increase your longevity and quality of life than will changing your diet. As will being generally physically, intellectually and creatively active. Watching your diet is cool, but keeping your mind, body and soul in some kind of balance has to matter a lot too.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I am convinced that a steady and relentless diet of meat is unhealthy, regardless of what those appealing to religion, evolution, or FDA guidelines might suggest. I have read tons of evidence that suggests otherwise. Eat lots of fruit and veggies and lots of green plants and fill your belly with unprocessed foods. Then, if your ethics allow, eat a bit of meat. But the idea that we have to eat meat to be healthy is a myth. We can live without it, and there is so much evidence to show that we can live healthy lives without meat that it is thunderingly clear that the burden of proof lies on those who don't think so.

But, you know, most people have opinions without reading a lot of books and articles and stuff. They just hear it and believe it.

Lobo and I are both vegan (Lobo by ethical conviction, me by health conviction; Lobo 100%, me 98%, because I cheat now and then). I've never met Lobo (because we both are prone to going to Vegas precisely when the other is in Southern California), but I have the impression that his body and mind are not stilted by a lack of meat in his diet. I know I'm not.

To Landmark: see, this is where I *do* understand your objection to my references to "nature". Some think that if God or evolution gave us a taste for meat and the teeth and digestive systems to consume it, that eating meat is "natural" and therefore a good thing. But this makes my point, doesn't it? What is "natural" is NOT necessarily GOOD. BUT: if good, strong, hard science tells us that our diets are healthy or unhealthy, then maybe we ought to listen. Nature is telling us what healthy is. If we think that healthy=good, then nature has set the standard.


Wish you would have called me even if you couldn't meet up...I'd have pointed you to some vegan dining you wouldn't believe.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Calories: 688
Fat: 5.6 grams
Dietary fiber: 32 grams
Protein: 88 grams
Iron: 75.2% of RDA

Selected data from 8-ounce serving of my favorite steak alternative.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Stone wrote:
Quote:
Right now I do between 200 and 300 push-ups a day and 400 crunches.

Holy ravioli! The only crunch I do is Cap'N Crunch. Kudos!

Quote:
What is "natural" is NOT necessarily GOOD. BUT: if good, strong, hard science tells us that our diets are healthy or unhealthy, then maybe we ought to listen. Nature is telling us what healthy is

Umm...no, then it's science--a uniquely human activity--not nature, that is telling us what healthy is.

But I suspect I have a lot to learn about what Natural Law means. Maybe I'll start a new thread if you're up to conversing about it. Best I can tell, from the very little reading I've done on it, is that it has meant a whole lot of different things at different times.
stoneunhinged
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On Apr 15, 2015, landmark wrote:
...no, then it's science--a uniquely human activity--not nature, that is telling us what healthy is.


Science is the activity of discovering nature. Nature is what it is, not what science tells it to be. Science doesn't create atoms, molecules, and planets.

Magnus pointed out a few pages ago that we have to "rationally" look at nature to learn its lessons. He's right. Again, I'm pretty sure you agree. Something is just getting lost in translation.
Salguod Nairb
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Mmmmm... Push Up's and Cruches.....

Image
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
Destiny
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I have never believed in cruelty to animals but for some reason I have a sudden urge to pull the wings off flies.
rockwall
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
...
On the point about adding two years to one's life: my goal isn't really to live longer. My goal is to not be dependent on pills and operations and medical care in my later years. ... When I'm in my sixties, seventies, and eighties I want to be jumping around pill-less and with energy and elan.


Exactly! Me too! Except, I'm not giving up on my nineties like you apparently are! Smile

Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
... Right now I do between 200 and 300 push-ups a day and 400 crunches. I want to do that when I'm 85. I want to be like Jack LaLanne.


Like landmark, I'm seriously impressed. How many at one time?

Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
It has a cool side effect: cows, pigs, and chickens think I'm a nice guy.


Don't mean to burst your bubble from an otherwise excellent post but sorry, they actually don't.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
It has a cool side effect: cows, pigs, and chickens think I'm a nice guy.


Don't mean to burst your bubble from an otherwise excellent post but sorry, they actually don't.


Both lines gave me a good laugh today. Thanks, guys!
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
stoneunhinged
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Smile Yeah, I haven't met many cows pigs or chickens, so I guess they don't really think much about me at all. Then again, how do you know? It could be that I have something like the equivalent of the Pig Oscar. My bubble remains inflated.

Regarding push-ups: I usually do thirty to forty at a time. My goal WAS to do twenty on command (given a little break, of course). But then I was walking with my son to the place we had parked outside Staples Center, and some guy was...ah...busking?...by saying, "50 push-ups for a dollar."

I said, "Go!", and the guy did fifty push-ups. I gave him $2.00. But it changed my goal. Now I want to do fifty on command (given a little break, of course).
magicfish
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On Apr 15, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I am convinced that a steady and relentless diet of meat is unhealthy, regardless of what those appealing to religion, evolution, or FDA guidelines might suggest. I have read tons of evidence that suggests otherwise. Eat lots of fruit and veggies and lots of green plants and fill your belly with unprocessed foods. Then, if your ethics allow, eat a bit of meat. But the idea that we have to eat meat to be healthy is a myth. We can live without it, and there is so much evidence to show that we can live healthy lives without meat that it is thunderingly clear that the burden of proof lies on those who don't think so.

But, you know, most people have opinions without reading a lot of books and articles and stuff. They just hear it and believe it.

Lobo and I are both vegan (Lobo by ethical conviction, me by health conviction; Lobo 100%, me 98%, because I cheat now and then). I've never met Lobo (because we both are prone to going to Vegas precisely when the other is in Southern California), but I have the impression that his body and mind are not stilted by a lack of meat in his diet. I know I'm not.

To Landmark: see, this is where I *do* understand your objection to my references to "nature". Some think that if God or evolution gave us a taste for meat and the teeth and digestive systems to consume it, that eating meat is "natural" and therefore a good thing. But this makes my point, doesn't it? What is "natural" is NOT necessarily GOOD. BUT: if good, strong, hard science tells us that our diets are healthy or unhealthy, then maybe we ought to listen. Nature is telling us what healthy is. If we think that healthy=good, then nature has set the standard.


Wish you would have called me even if you couldn't meet up...I'd have pointed you to some vegan dining you wouldn't believe.

You mean, "wish you had called me..."
Ftfy.
Sorry Lobo, seems to be the trend here. Just trying to fit in with the correction crew.
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