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Melies
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Yes, of course I do (think it's wrong, that is!). However, since I'm writing a book on the subject right now, and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject. The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right. Slavery flourished in the Middle East, China, Europe, Africa, and parts of the Americas for thousands of years, and was defended by some of the greatest minds our species has produced (Aristotle among them). But the fact that practically everyone believed slavery to be natural and right didn't make it right....
Jonathan Townsend
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In discourse ... odd to put the notion of natural against appeals to a sense of social identity or vanity. Does the tiger feel less pretty before it hunts? or after? do we feel more human if we don't put ketchup on our burger?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote:
The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right.

Nobody suggested that it did.

And your slavery analogy is far off the mark.

Biologically, people were designed to eat meat. Writing about it doesn't change that fact.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote:
...and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject....


Tut tut.
landmark
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Quote:
On Apr 12, 2015, S2000magician wrote:


Biologically, people were designed to eat meat. Writing about it doesn't change that fact.

Biologically, people were designed to listen to Justin Bieber songs. That doesn't make it moral.
Again, we have to look outside nature for our moral parameters.
stoneunhinged
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On Apr 13, 2015, landmark wrote:

Again, we have to look outside nature for our moral parameters.


I think that nature is EXACTLY where we have to look for our moral parameters. But it's the wrong question to ask what is "natural"; rather, we should ask what is *good* according to nature. Other than religious belief, it's really the only guide we have.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, landmark wrote:

Again, we have to look outside nature for our moral parameters.


I think that nature is EXACTLY where we have to look for our moral parameters. But it's the wrong question to ask what is "natural"; rather, we should ask what is *good* according to nature. Other than religious belief, it's really the only guide we have.


If by "nature" you include the consequences of rational deliberation, I'm with you.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote:
Yes, of course I do (think it's wrong, that is!). However, since I'm writing a book on the subject right now, and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject. The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right. Slavery flourished in the Middle East, China, Europe, Africa, and parts of the Americas for thousands of years, and was defended by some of the greatest minds our species has produced (Aristotle among them). But the fact that practically everyone believed slavery to be natural and right didn't make it right....


Personally, I don't find it remotely tedious. I think that "treating animals well" includes not killing them because they happen to taste good.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote:
Yes, of course I do (think it's wrong, that is!). However, since I'm writing a book on the subject right now, and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject. The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right. Slavery flourished in the Middle East, China, Europe, Africa, and parts of the Americas for thousands of years, and was defended by some of the greatest minds our species has produced (Aristotle among them). But the fact that practically everyone believed slavery to be natural and right didn't make it right....

Personally, I don't find it remotely tedious. I think that "treating animals well" includes not killing them because they happen to taste good.

You were banned, so your opinion doesn't count.
LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
True, but morality is a subject that we can't go into detail here. I think eating animals is ok, because the Bible says it is, but some people disagree with that reason, and rules here prohibit us from arguing about it.


If your justification for omnivorism is Biblical, one interesting argument I've read from a Christian vegan is that Adam and Eve were originally in their "more perfect" state) vegetarians, as there was no death in the Garden of Eden; thus, to the extent that meat-eating is condoned in the Bible, it is only as a result of their fallen nature, and nothing something one should aspire to.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the theological position of vegetarianism in the Garden of Eden.

I've also heard the argument that many Biblical moral rules are related to health, and it may be that meat eating (from a Biblical perspective) was acceptable as a necessary means of obtaining protein that no longer applies.

Food for thought (pun intended).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote:
Yes, of course I do (think it's wrong, that is!). However, since I'm writing a book on the subject right now, and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject. The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right. Slavery flourished in the Middle East, China, Europe, Africa, and parts of the Americas for thousands of years, and was defended by some of the greatest minds our species has produced (Aristotle among them). But the fact that practically everyone believed slavery to be natural and right didn't make it right....

Personally, I don't find it remotely tedious. I think that "treating animals well" includes not killing them because they happen to taste good.

You were banned, so your opinion doesn't count.


I've paid my debt to society!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 17, 2014, Natural Mystic wrote:
Should meat eaters be concerned about animal welfare? I haven't seen any animal willingly go into the slaughter house.

Just sayin'

They should be killed humanely. It does not torture the animal for it to be my burger. It is completely different than abuse or dog fighting. Just for interesting discussion: Why do we get so upset about animals being killed and abused, and then squash a spider or cockroach without a second thought? They are in the animal kingdom as well.


Would you say that it isn't cruel to kill a person as long as his death is painless?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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I would say that it isn't cruel to eat a person, as long as his death was unintentional.

WAIT! I'm confused.

Am I responding to Lobo? Really? Am I dreaming?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I would say that it isn't cruel to eat a person, as long as his death was unintentional.

WAIT! I'm confused.

Am I responding to Lobo? Really? Am I dreaming?


More to the point, it isn't cruel to eat anything, provided it's dead.

And yes, he has risen (from café prison).
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote:
Yes, of course I do (think it's wrong, that is!). However, since I'm writing a book on the subject right now, and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject. The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right. Slavery flourished in the Middle East, China, Europe, Africa, and parts of the Americas for thousands of years, and was defended by some of the greatest minds our species has produced (Aristotle among them). But the fact that practically everyone believed slavery to be natural and right didn't make it right....

Personally, I don't find it remotely tedious. I think that "treating animals well" includes not killing them because they happen to taste good.

You were banned, so your opinion doesn't count.

I've paid my debt to society!

What's your recidivism rate?
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

More to the point, it isn't cruel to eat anything, provided it's dead.


Indeed. Which means this whole line of discussion is irrelevant to the OP. How we treat animals is one thing; how we eat them (or not eat them) is another.

Some philosopher that other guy is.

(He's trying to steal my thunder!)
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

More to the point, it isn't cruel to eat anything, provided it's dead.


Indeed. Which means this whole line of discussion is irrelevant to the OP. How we treat animals is one thing; how we eat them (or not eat them) is another.

Some philosopher that other guy is.

(He's trying to steal my thunder!)


Ummmmm nice try. C'mon, Stone. We're not talking about eating accidental roadkill. The fact that billions of animals are killed intentionally for the express purpose of being eaten is *quite* relevant.

Or have you forgotten your very own "as long as his death was unintentional" disclaimer?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote:
Yes, of course I do (think it's wrong, that is!). However, since I'm writing a book on the subject right now, and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject. The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right. Slavery flourished in the Middle East, China, Europe, Africa, and parts of the Americas for thousands of years, and was defended by some of the greatest minds our species has produced (Aristotle among them). But the fact that practically everyone believed slavery to be natural and right didn't make it right....

Personally, I don't find it remotely tedious. I think that "treating animals well" includes not killing them because they happen to taste good.

You were banned, so your opinion doesn't count.

I've paid my debt to society!

What's your recidivism rate?



It's pretty high. Apparently.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Right. I wasn't trying to be disingenuous.

But I like to make distinctions. Treating pets is different from treating livestock. Treating livestock for their milk is different than treating them for their meat. Prison is not an abattoir. A brothel is not a dairy farm. Animals don't sit in prison for 30 years falsely convicted.

WAIT!

Maybe I'm the real weirdo, because I would prefer we don't kill anything but kale.

About that I am ruthless.
ZachDavenport
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 9, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 17, 2014, Natural Mystic wrote:
Should meat eaters be concerned about animal welfare? I haven't seen any animal willingly go into the slaughter house.

Just sayin'

They should be killed humanely. It does not torture the animal for it to be my burger. It is completely different than abuse or dog fighting. Just for interesting discussion: Why do we get so upset about animals being killed and abused, and then squash a spider or cockroach without a second thought? They are in the animal kingdom as well.

Would you say that it isn't cruel to kill a person as long as his death is painless?

No because humans have a soul while animals do not. This goes back to Christianity, which does not have meaning to everyone.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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