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ZachDavenport
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On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
True, but morality is a subject that we can't go into detail here. I think eating animals is ok, because the Bible says it is, but some people disagree with that reason, and rules here prohibit us from arguing about it.


If your justification for omnivorism is Biblical, one interesting argument I've read from a Christian vegan is that Adam and Eve were originally in their "more perfect" state) vegetarians, as there was no death in the Garden of Eden; thus, to the extent that meat-eating is condoned in the Bible, it is only as a result of their fallen nature, and nothing something one should aspire to.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the theological position of vegetarianism in the Garden of Eden.

I've also heard the argument that many Biblical moral rules are related to health, and it may be that meat eating (from a Biblical perspective) was acceptable as a necessary means of obtaining protein that no longer applies.

Food for thought (pun intended).

It is true that Adam and Eve were vegetarians, and that there was no death before sin. However there is nowhere in the Bible that I'm aware of that prohibits eating meat. In fact the priests were instructed to eat sacrificial meat. The conditions of the Garden of Eden will not be restored until Jesus returns.
Reality is a real killjoy.
Ray Tupper.
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On Apr 13, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
The conditions of the Garden of Eden will not be restored until Jesus returns.

They even had a Mexican groundsman as far back as that?
I hope he was legal and paid his taxes.
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LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 13, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
True, but morality is a subject that we can't go into detail here. I think eating animals is ok, because the Bible says it is, but some people disagree with that reason, and rules here prohibit us from arguing about it.


If your justification for omnivorism is Biblical, one interesting argument I've read from a Christian vegan is that Adam and Eve were originally in their "more perfect" state) vegetarians, as there was no death in the Garden of Eden; thus, to the extent that meat-eating is condoned in the Bible, it is only as a result of their fallen nature, and nothing something one should aspire to.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the theological position of vegetarianism in the Garden of Eden.

I've also heard the argument that many Biblical moral rules are related to health, and it may be that meat eating (from a Biblical perspective) was acceptable as a necessary means of obtaining protein that no longer applies.

Food for thought (pun intended).

It is true that Adam and Eve were vegetarians, and that there was no death before sin. However there is nowhere in the Bible that I'm aware of that prohibits eating meat. In fact the priests were instructed to eat sacrificial meat. The conditions of the Garden of Eden will not be restored until Jesus returns.



But the argument is that Adam and Eve were the most perfect of human beings (not including Jesus, of course), and that while eating animals might not be prohibited, refraining from doing so is more representative of our higher nature. Or our higher potential.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
ZachDavenport
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
True, but morality is a subject that we can't go into detail here. I think eating animals is ok, because the Bible says it is, but some people disagree with that reason, and rules here prohibit us from arguing about it.


If your justification for omnivorism is Biblical, one interesting argument I've read from a Christian vegan is that Adam and Eve were originally in their "more perfect" state) vegetarians, as there was no death in the Garden of Eden; thus, to the extent that meat-eating is condoned in the Bible, it is only as a result of their fallen nature, and nothing something one should aspire to.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the theological position of vegetarianism in the Garden of Eden.

I've also heard the argument that many Biblical moral rules are related to health, and it may be that meat eating (from a Biblical perspective) was acceptable as a necessary means of obtaining protein that no longer applies.

Food for thought (pun intended).

It is true that Adam and Eve were vegetarians, and that there was no death before sin. However there is nowhere in the Bible that I'm aware of that prohibits eating meat. In fact the priests were instructed to eat sacrificial meat. The conditions of the Garden of Eden will not be restored until Jesus returns.



But the argument is that Adam and Eve were the most perfect of human beings (not including Jesus, of course), and that while eating animals might not be prohibited, refraining from doing so is more representative of our higher nature. Or our higher potential.

If God is ok with me eating something that tastes as good as meat then I am too. If God wanted us to try to be like it was in the garden of Eden, then it would be in the bible.
Reality is a real killjoy.
landmark
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On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote:
Yes, of course I do (think it's wrong, that is!). However, since I'm writing a book on the subject right now, and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject. The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right. Slavery flourished in the Middle East, China, Europe, Africa, and parts of the Americas for thousands of years, and was defended by some of the greatest minds our species has produced (Aristotle among them). But the fact that practically everyone believed slavery to be natural and right didn't make it right....

Personally, I don't find it remotely tedious. I think that "treating animals well" includes not killing them because they happen to taste good.

You were banned, so your opinion doesn't count.


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Okay, but you can't vote for Post of the Year anymore in this state.
magicfish
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I couldn't disagree more. I think deliberately abstaining from eating animals represents a reversal in intellectual progress.
But you knew that already.
Pleasure having you back, Lobo.
landmark
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On Apr 13, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, landmark wrote:

Again, we have to look outside nature for our moral parameters.


I think that nature is EXACTLY where we have to look for our moral parameters. But it's the wrong question to ask what is "natural"; rather, we should ask what is *good* according to nature. Other than religious belief, it's really the only guide we have.


I think the burden is on you Jeff to show that nature has an opinion about what is good.
People can be happy as clams, but clams can't be happy.

Now it may be that your notion of nature in this context is very specific. Generally when people say that what is natural is good, they mean that in their selective vision, one should look to the penguins or bonobos or jackals for tips on how to behave.

That you say "Other than religious belief..." means that you recognize that there are moral forces aside from nature. I posit that the Golden Rule, which is sometimes found in nature and sometimes not, is a moral premise that requires neither religious belief nor a correlative in nature.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I couldn't disagree more. I think deliberately abstaining from eating animals represents a reversal in intellectual progress.
But you knew that already.
Pleasure having you back, Lobo.


Reversal in intellectual progress? That's gonna require some explanation.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
magicfish
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I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.


What evidence do you have for this claim? I see absolutely zero logical connection between the consumption of meat and our intellectual capacities.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
stoneunhinged
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On Apr 13, 2015, landmark wrote:
Generally when people say that what is natural is good....


I didn't say that, though, did I?

Saying what is natural is good is not the same thing as saying there is a natural good.

If what is natural is good, then everything done is good, since human beings are products of nature. My sexual urges, for example, are natural, so if everything natural is good, then everything I can do or think of doing is good because it is natural. But that's not my position.

And of course there is a burden of proof. Of course. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think that I could persuade ANYONE here at the Café to accept my argument for some kind of natural law, and I have actually given the basics of the argument. Unlike Melies, I don't find it tedious to make the argument. I just don't want to regurgitate the same argument every time the subject comes up. And in fact, if you do a search of Stoneunhinged's posts with the words "natural law" you'll get 26 hits. I have never been shy about giving an argument to back up my opinion. But do I have to do it *again*?

I'm so confident that you would agree with me that I'd be willing to bet on it. But I'm not gonna write a book and link to a PDF. I prefer bars. (You're much more likely to agree with me after a beer or two. Philosophy is a friendly activity. Right Melies?)
LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 13, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Apr 9, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
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On Mar 17, 2014, Natural Mystic wrote:
Should meat eaters be concerned about animal welfare? I haven't seen any animal willingly go into the slaughter house.

Just sayin'

They should be killed humanely. It does not torture the animal for it to be my burger. It is completely different than abuse or dog fighting. Just for interesting discussion: Why do we get so upset about animals being killed and abused, and then squash a spider or cockroach without a second thought? They are in the animal kingdom as well.

Would you say that it isn't cruel to kill a person as long as his death is painless?

No because humans have a soul while animals do not. This goes back to Christianity, which does not have meaning to everyone.


If your belief is that humans have eternal life and animals don't, then it would seem far less cruel to kill a human being.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.


What evidence do you have for this claim? I see absolutely zero logical connection between the consumption of meat and our intellectual capacities.

I'm not sure whether or not that is what magicfish was saying / meant. I thought he meant it more like we only consider doing something as, say, 'inherently distasteful' as eat meat because it is now socially acceptable, traditional, convenient, etc. That if we started over and saw no one eat meat, that we would never consider doing it ourselves. That is how I read his post, not sure I agree.

As for your point, I've read that eating meat IS part of why man's intellect evolved to what it is today. Lots of articles / research on this. Here is one link:

http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/......-smarter

EDIT: Having now read some of magicfish's earlier posts, I think he did mean what you said. In that case, the link above supports his point.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
stoneunhinged
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On Apr 14, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If your belief is that humans have eternal life and animals don't, then it would seem far less cruel to kill a human being.


See, this is why I love a good discussion: you learn things. I never thought about it in precisely this way before, but it is utterly logical. Thanks, Lobo.

And BTW to ZachDavenport: the idea that human beings have eternal (or reincarnatable)souls did not originate with Christianity. It's much older than that. What's different about the Judaic/Christian tradition is the idea of resurrection--a rather astonishing teaching, but which isn't really talked about much by modern pastors in Hawaiian shirts.

Where's Pop, by the way? I always think of him when the discussion gets a bit religious, because he went to seminary and knows this stuff pretty well. And he doesn't wear Hawaiian shirts. Maybe Whit does, but Pop doesn't. I don't think.
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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I don't think.

You do think.

I don't understand why you try to deny it.
kambiz
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 9, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 17, 2014, Natural Mystic wrote:
Should meat eaters be concerned about animal welfare? I haven't seen any animal willingly go into the slaughter house.

Just sayin'

They should be killed humanely. It does not torture the animal for it to be my burger. It is completely different than abuse or dog fighting. Just for interesting discussion: Why do we get so upset about animals being killed and abused, and then squash a spider or cockroach without a second thought? They are in the animal kingdom as well.

Would you say that it isn't cruel to kill a person as long as his death is painless?

No because humans have a soul while animals do not. This goes back to Christianity, which does not have meaning to everyone.


If your belief is that humans have eternal life and animals don't, then it would seem far less cruel to kill a human being.



....unless of course one says that the possibility exists that a person who is killed is in some way "disabled" in his/her afterlife....

Kam
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And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
If you don't think that consuming animals is natural, you really need to do some research. We may do it a little differently, but killing other animals for food is perfectly natural. We are omnivores by nature.



How do you know that we are omnivores?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
stoneunhinged
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On Apr 14, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I don't think.

You do think.

I don't understand why you try to deny it.


Because of this:




Bruce Lee was my biggest hero as a teenager.
kambiz
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I don't think.

You do think.

I don't understand why you try to deny it.


Because of this:




Bruce Lee was my biggest hero as a teenager.


Hands down one of my favourite screen memories as a child!! Hahahah

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
magicfish
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On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.


What evidence do you have for this claim? I see absolutely zero logical connection between the consumption of meat and our intellectual capacities.

Lobowolff believes that there IS a logical connection. He is more eloquent than I. Why don't you ask him for evidence?
Lobo says abstinence is intellectual progress. I say it is the opposite. And yet you demand evidence from me but not Lobo? Interesting.
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