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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts 
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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: I had supposed that you had a very particular meaning of "natural," hence my comment. I'll look up your prior posts on this when I get a chance. But, clearly, in the posts to which I was responding, aside from yours, the posters were using the word in the sense to which I objected. I'll further refer you to "Who's on First" for my feelings about the word "naturally."
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote: Lobo says that abstinence (including from meat) is a choice. And in most cases this is trivially true. In modern Western civilization we make a lot of choices about what we eat. This doesn't strike me as contentious. (Interesting marginal cases such as dietary restrictions due to religion or culture are worth pondering. To what extent can we choose our culture?) The debatable part of Lobo's claim is that choosing vegetarianism/veganism is a sort of progress. This is more difficult, but he (and a few others) are making the case through their posts. At the very least, it seems obvious that for many vegetarians/vegans, the choice is a moral choice based on concern for animal welfare and (although it hasn't appeared in this thread) from respect or concern from the environment. A counter to this (which I've made in previous threads, but not this one) is that meat has a significant cultural and role, especially for many indigenous peoples. Hunting animals and eating meat has a meaning for many North American First Nations and Inuit that is very difficult for outsiders to grasp. Your claim, however is causal. You say that "It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat." By this, I think you mean that the evolutionary development of the human intellect was possible because our ancestors ate meat. (I don't think you are doubting that they were mainly omnivores, eating whatever was available.) This is a scientific claim, and it is this claim that I am questioning. Do you have evidence for this claim? Or do I misunderstand your meaning?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Balducci posted an interesting link above.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: Shakespeare made the point in Twelfth Night Clown ... Good madonna, give me leave to prove you a fool. OLIVIA Can you do it? Clown Dexterously, good madonna. OLIVIA Make your proof. Clown I must catechise you for it, madonna: good my mouse of virtue, answer me. OLIVIA Well, sir, for want of other idleness, I'll bide your proof. Clown Good madonna, why mournest thou? OLIVIA Good fool, for my brother's death. Clown I think his soul is in hell, madonna. OLIVIA I know his soul is in heaven, fool. Clown The more fool, madonna, to mourn for your brother's soul being in heaven. Take away the fool, gentlemen.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, balducci wrote: I don't think that article makes the point at all. The first half proposes that by scavenging alongside hyenas and wolves we were able to get enough high-energy food to physically change. Ok, but hyenas and wolves didn't develop human-like intelligence. The article goes on to speculate that cooking (apparently our ancestors were already ahead of the other scavengers in that ability) allowed for social cooperation, which led to our intellectual development. No mention is made of the development of language, which is surely more important than dining in the development of human capacities. It's a cute just-so story, but where's the evidence for cause-and-effect?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Http://m.livescience.com/23671-eating-me......man.html
This one is equally interesting. But now we are derailing. Sorry guys. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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As far as language goes, it is widely accepted by modern science that hunting in groups, strategizing etc., and the subsequent cooking and eating of meet was a large catalyst for language development.
Anyways. Im outta here. Cheers. |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, kambiz wrote: Our digestive system has elements for digesting both plants and meats.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote: Again, it's easy to believe that a high-energy diet helped our ancestors to use the distinctively human characteristics. It's quite another to claim that meat-eating "made us human" which is rather obviously a gruesome over-statement. If meat-eating could do that, then weasels and sharks would have astounding intellectual capacities. Meat-eating may have created some leisure. Just as grain-eating did much later in human history. But neither is nearly enough to "make us human". More relevant to the current discussion is the fact that now that we are the rational creatures that we are, we can choose (and engineer) what we eat, regardless of what our ancestors ate.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: I never once said that the idea of a soul originated with Christianity, and I'm well aware of the difference between Christianity and Judaism. If you look at he bible you will see that the God I worship came before all other religions, and other religions deviated from his worship. People once again started worshiping the true God after God called Abraham. So in my belife system the same God that I worship originated the idea of a soul.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote: I think that abstinence is moral progress, facilitated by intellectual progress.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote: OK Lobo, the ball's in your court. What makes abstinence (I assume you mean from eating meat) "moral progress"?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote: No, you didn't. You said, Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote: Seems to imply the same thing, if you ask me. But I apologize if I misrepresented your intentions. That being said, you seem to imply that you are a lot more learned about the Bible than others here. You are probably wrong about that. I'm a 51 year-old son of a fundamentalist Baptist missionary who has a degree from Liberty University. Class of '85. Do not assume you know the Bible better than I do. |
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RNK Inner circle 7530 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote: Our digestive system has elements for digesting both plants and meats. [/quote] Exactly. We were designed to east meat. Bring on the bacon......sausage....and the simply delicious marinated Porterhouse grilled to perfection!
Check out Bafflingbob.com
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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My skeletal system gives me the capability to fire shotguns at anyone I please. It's quite a hop, skip & jump from ability to morality.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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We weren't designed eat anything. We just happen to be wonderfully efficient machines that can eat almost anything and get away with it. It's pretty cool to be a human.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote: Yes I know. I still disagree, but again, respect your choices and admire your sticktoitiveness. |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: I didn't assume that you know less about the Bible than me, but you could just as easily be someone who knows nothing about the bible, so I went with giving to much information that to little. I believe that the idea (reality if you ask me) of a soul goes back to the same God that Christianity worships, and to explain that I would have to give some exposition if you did not know much about the Bible.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Actually, the concept of the soul predates Christianity by centuries.
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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I never said it didn't. It predates Christianity by thousands of years. Read my post again, because you don't seem to understand it.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Posted: Apr 14, 2015 11:07 am 
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