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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, landmark wrote:
Generally when people say that what is natural is good....


I didn't say that, though, did I?

Saying what is natural is good is not the same thing as saying there is a natural good.

If what is natural is good, then everything done is good, since human beings are products of nature. My sexual urges, for example, are natural, so if everything natural is good, then everything I can do or think of doing is good because it is natural. But that's not my position.

And of course there is a burden of proof. Of course. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think that I could persuade ANYONE here at the Café to accept my argument for some kind of natural law, and I have actually given the basics of the argument. Unlike Melies, I don't find it tedious to make the argument. I just don't want to regurgitate the same argument every time the subject comes up. And in fact, if you do a search of Stoneunhinged's posts with the words "natural law" you'll get 26 hits. I have never been shy about giving an argument to back up my opinion. But do I have to do it *again*?

I'm so confident that you would agree with me that I'd be willing to bet on it. But I'm not gonna write a book and link to a PDF. I prefer bars. (You're much more likely to agree with me after a beer or two. Philosophy is a friendly activity. Right Melies?)

I had supposed that you had a very particular meaning of "natural," hence my comment. I'll look up your prior posts on this when I get a chance. But, clearly, in the posts to which I was responding, aside from yours, the posters were using the word in the sense to which I objected.

I'll further refer you to "Who's on First" for my feelings about the word "naturally."
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.


What evidence do you have for this claim? I see absolutely zero logical connection between the consumption of meat and our intellectual capacities.

Lobowolff believes that there IS a logical connection. He is more eloquent than I. Why don't you ask him for evidence?
Lobo says abstinence is intellectual progress. I say it is the opposite. And yet you demand evidence from me but not Lobo? Interesting.


Lobo says that abstinence (including from meat) is a choice. And in most cases this is trivially true. In modern Western civilization we make a lot of choices about what we eat. This doesn't strike me as contentious. (Interesting marginal cases such as dietary restrictions due to religion or culture are worth pondering. To what extent can we choose our culture?)

The debatable part of Lobo's claim is that choosing vegetarianism/veganism is a sort of progress. This is more difficult, but he (and a few others) are making the case through their posts. At the very least, it seems obvious that for many vegetarians/vegans, the choice is a moral choice based on concern for animal welfare and (although it hasn't appeared in this thread) from respect or concern from the environment.

A counter to this (which I've made in previous threads, but not this one) is that meat has a significant cultural and role, especially for many indigenous peoples. Hunting animals and eating meat has a meaning for many North American First Nations and Inuit that is very difficult for outsiders to grasp.

Your claim, however is causal. You say that "It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat." By this, I think you mean that the evolutionary development of the human intellect was possible because our ancestors ate meat. (I don't think you are doubting that they were mainly omnivores, eating whatever was available.) This is a scientific claim, and it is this claim that I am questioning. Do you have evidence for this claim? Or do I misunderstand your meaning?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
magicfish
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Balducci posted an interesting link above.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
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On Apr 14, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If your belief is that humans have eternal life and animals don't, then it would seem far less cruel to kill a human being.


See, this is why I love a good discussion: you learn things. I never thought about it in precisely this way before, but it is utterly logical. Thanks, Lobo.



Shakespeare made the point in Twelfth Night

Clown
... Good madonna, give me leave to
prove you a fool.

OLIVIA
Can you do it?

Clown
Dexterously, good madonna.

OLIVIA
Make your proof.

Clown
I must catechise you for it, madonna: good my mouse
of virtue, answer me.

OLIVIA
Well, sir, for want of other idleness, I'll bide your proof.

Clown
Good madonna, why mournest thou?

OLIVIA
Good fool, for my brother's death.

Clown
I think his soul is in hell, madonna.

OLIVIA
I know his soul is in heaven, fool.

Clown
The more fool, madonna, to mourn for your brother's
soul being in heaven. Take away the fool, gentlemen.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Apr 14, 2015, balducci wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.


What evidence do you have for this claim? I see absolutely zero logical connection between the consumption of meat and our intellectual capacities.

I'm not sure whether or not that is what magicfish was saying / meant. I thought he meant it more like we only consider doing something as, say, 'inherently distasteful' as eat meat because it is now socially acceptable, traditional, convenient, etc. That if we started over and saw no one eat meat, that we would never consider doing it ourselves. That is how I read his post, not sure I agree.

As for your point, I've read that eating meat IS part of why man's intellect evolved to what it is today. Lots of articles / research on this. Here is one link:

http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/......-smarter

EDIT: Having now read some of magicfish's earlier posts, I think he did mean what you said. In that case, the link above supports his point.


I don't think that article makes the point at all. The first half proposes that by scavenging alongside hyenas and wolves we were able to get enough high-energy food to physically change. Ok, but hyenas and wolves didn't develop human-like intelligence.

The article goes on to speculate that cooking (apparently our ancestors were already ahead of the other scavengers in that ability) allowed for social cooperation, which led to our intellectual development.

No mention is made of the development of language, which is surely more important than dining in the development of human capacities.

It's a cute just-so story, but where's the evidence for cause-and-effect?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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Http://m.livescience.com/23671-eating-me......man.html
This one is equally interesting. But now we are derailing. Sorry guys.
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As far as language goes, it is widely accepted by modern science that hunting in groups, strategizing etc., and the subsequent cooking and eating of meet was a large catalyst for language development.
Anyways. Im outta here.
Cheers.
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
If you don't think that consuming animals is natural, you really need to do some research. We may do it a little differently, but killing other animals for food is perfectly natural. We are omnivores by nature.



How do you know that we are omnivores?

Kam

Our digestive system has elements for digesting both plants and meats.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Http://m.livescience.com/23671-eating-me......man.html
This one is equally interesting. But now we are derailing. Sorry guys.


Again, it's easy to believe that a high-energy diet helped our ancestors to use the distinctively human characteristics. It's quite another to claim that meat-eating "made us human" which is rather obviously a gruesome over-statement. If meat-eating could do that, then weasels and sharks would have astounding intellectual capacities.

Meat-eating may have created some leisure. Just as grain-eating did much later in human history. But neither is nearly enough to "make us human".

More relevant to the current discussion is the fact that now that we are the rational creatures that we are, we can choose (and engineer) what we eat, regardless of what our ancestors ate.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If your belief is that humans have eternal life and animals don't, then it would seem far less cruel to kill a human being.


See, this is why I love a good discussion: you learn things. I never thought about it in precisely this way before, but it is utterly logical. Thanks, Lobo.

And BTW to ZachDavenport: the idea that human beings have eternal (or reincarnatable)souls did not originate with Christianity. It's much older than that. What's different about the Judaic/Christian tradition is the idea of resurrection--a rather astonishing teaching, but which isn't really talked about much by modern pastors in Hawaiian shirts.

Where's Pop, by the way? I always think of him when the discussion gets a bit religious, because he went to seminary and knows this stuff pretty well. And he doesn't wear Hawaiian shirts. Maybe Whit does, but Pop doesn't. I don't think.

I never once said that the idea of a soul originated with Christianity, and I'm well aware of the difference between Christianity and Judaism. If you look at he bible you will see that the God I worship came before all other religions, and other religions deviated from his worship. People once again started worshiping the true God after God called Abraham. So in my belife system the same God that I worship originated the idea of a soul.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote:
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On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.


What evidence do you have for this claim? I see absolutely zero logical connection between the consumption of meat and our intellectual capacities.

Lobowolff believes that there IS a logical connection. He is more eloquent than I. Why don't you ask him for evidence?
Lobo says abstinence is intellectual progress. I say it is the opposite. And yet you demand evidence from me but not Lobo? Interesting.


I think that abstinence is moral progress, facilitated by intellectual progress.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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On Apr 14, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.


What evidence do you have for this claim? I see absolutely zero logical connection between the consumption of meat and our intellectual capacities.

Lobowolff believes that there IS a logical connection. He is more eloquent than I. Why don't you ask him for evidence?
Lobo says abstinence is intellectual progress. I say it is the opposite. And yet you demand evidence from me but not Lobo? Interesting.


I think that abstinence is moral progress, facilitated by intellectual progress.


OK Lobo, the ball's in your court. What makes abstinence (I assume you mean from eating meat) "moral progress"?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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On Apr 14, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
I never once said that the idea of a soul originated with Christianity, and I'm well aware of the difference between Christianity and Judaism.


No, you didn't.

You said,
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
No because humans have a soul while animals do not. This goes back to Christianity, which does not have meaning to everyone.


Seems to imply the same thing, if you ask me. But I apologize if I misrepresented your intentions.

That being said, you seem to imply that you are a lot more learned about the Bible than others here. You are probably wrong about that. I'm a 51 year-old son of a fundamentalist Baptist missionary who has a degree from Liberty University. Class of '85. Do not assume you know the Bible better than I do.
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:

Our digestive system has elements for digesting both plants and meats. [/quote]

Exactly. We were designed to east meat. Bring on the bacon......sausage....and the simply delicious marinated Porterhouse grilled to perfection!
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My skeletal system gives me the capability to fire shotguns at anyone I please. It's quite a hop, skip & jump from ability to morality.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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We weren't designed eat anything. We just happen to be wonderfully efficient machines that can eat almost anything and get away with it. It's pretty cool to be a human.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, magicfish wrote:
I've explained it before, to do so again here is a derailment.
It is the consumption of meat that enables Homo Sapiens to ponder the consumption of meat. That's all I'll say here. Lobo knows I respect his decisions.


What evidence do you have for this claim? I see absolutely zero logical connection between the consumption of meat and our intellectual capacities.

Lobowolff believes that there IS a logical connection. He is more eloquent than I. Why don't you ask him for evidence?
Lobo says abstinence is intellectual progress. I say it is the opposite. And yet you demand evidence from me but not Lobo? Interesting.


I think that abstinence is moral progress, facilitated by intellectual progress.

Yes I know. I still disagree, but again, respect your choices and admire your sticktoitiveness.
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On Apr 14, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 14, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
I never once said that the idea of a soul originated with Christianity, and I'm well aware of the difference between Christianity and Judaism.


No, you didn't.

You said,
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
No because humans have a soul while animals do not. This goes back to Christianity, which does not have meaning to everyone.


Seems to imply the same thing, if you ask me. But I apologize if I misrepresented your intentions.

That being said, you seem to imply that you are a lot more learned about the Bible than others here. You are probably wrong about that. I'm a 51 year-old son of a fundamentalist Baptist missionary who has a degree from Liberty University. Class of '85. Do not assume you know the Bible better than I do.

I didn't assume that you know less about the Bible than me, but you could just as easily be someone who knows nothing about the bible, so I went with giving to much information that to little. I believe that the idea (reality if you ask me) of a soul goes back to the same God that Christianity worships, and to explain that I would have to give some exposition if you did not know much about the Bible.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Actually, the concept of the soul predates Christianity by centuries.
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I never said it didn't. It predates Christianity by thousands of years. Read my post again, because you don't seem to understand it.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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