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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
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On Mar 14, 2014, BarryFernelius wrote: Barry, to me your posts are always a pleasure to read. And this one is no exception From my side, it just shows I am not biased, but honest when I give an opinion. You may have missed many other posts where I did feel recommending Harry Lorayne's work and therefore did it with no hesitation. mlippo |
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mlippo Inner circle Trieste (Italy) 1227 Posts |
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On Mar 14, 2014, Harry Lorayne wrote: Did you ask them why the h**l they don't check what they put on their website? Did you ask them how many downloads they sold in the meantime? mlippo |
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Wilf Jonson New user 60 Posts |
Does a bookstore owner read each book sold in his/her store and evaluate it for plagiarism?
Evaluating that is really the publisher's responsibility. Content-wise, the publisher is the primary gatekeeper. Not the distributor, nor the bookseller. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Hmmm, that doesn't quite work as analogous to the magic community. These stores are run by and staffed by magicians, amongst others; they should not have been selling it. No excuse.
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Wilf Jonson New user 60 Posts |
Then please rank your assigned order of responsibility among author, publisher, distributor, retailer?
I'd order them: 1) Author 2) Publisher 3) Retailer 4) Distributor |
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Wilf Jonson New user 60 Posts |
Hmm, Denis Behr's site suggests the move goes back a bit further than identified here.
Click "Year" to sort chronologically: http://archive.denisbehr.de/show.php?cat=1607 |
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TStone V.I.P. Stockholm, Sweden 769 Posts |
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On Mar 14, 2014, Wilf Jonson wrote: Yes, the lineage of the move is very well established and documented. Robert-Houdin published the embryo of the move, done as an open flourish, in 1868. A few different people later, each on their own, came up with ways to do it as a secret move - the most known one is Harry Lorayne's "The Ultra Move", and it is Harry's handling that is sold with a new name and new title here. |
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Ihop Inner circle Glen Spey, NY 1604 Posts |
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On Mar 14, 2014, Wilf Jonson wrote: I don't quite understand how this whole "magic ownership" thing works. I just visited the quoted link. If someone could please explain this "magic ownership" policy/rule/law/etc. From the above link the effect has been published 6 times previously to Harry's first publication. So how is it Harry's? Im not trying to start trouble. Im just really confused on how this works. I've seen this before where new effects are sold based on old classics. Is this a gray area or are there defined guidelines? Does a new creator have to do research to see if it's been done previously?
Ihor
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
Yes he does. It's called ethics. And this move is Harry Lorayne's. Please don't derail this thread . Have there been similar things in print before the Ultra Move ? Sure. But Harry Lorayne created the usage, the handling, and the technique that many top men know and use.
He published many many uses for the sleight in many excellent routines that found their way into the repetoires of top flight men. But now we are off topic. Lets not derail Mr. Sanvert's thread. |
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Austin Fields New user 16 Posts |
I think the blame falls equally here. It's fallacious to blame the creator because you cannot assume someone from Singapore has access to the same material, or even the people to recommend the classic material, as all of us have. I was lucky enough to have experienced American magicians around me to suggest (force feed) the classics, as well as the material I should be familiar with.
If you're going to be involved with producing something in the magic community, you have a responsibility to your fellow magi. In the interest of fairness, I don't think anyone intended to rip-off Harry's move. The fact is, it's a difficult move that's not seen very often. We all know it, but it's rarely in a book or on a DVD because it's not easy. Mistakes happen, independent creation happens, but this time it fell through quite a few cracks. Their true colors will show up in how they deal with this mistake. Any money made off the production should go to the original creator, yeah? Magic sites should pull it down and apologize, as should the production team and creator. |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
Really, it's not a hard move at all.
And how can you blame the creator if he isn't the creator at all? You don't make any sense. Truth be told, Francois Dupont demonstrated this move to me over... well, lets leave it at that... A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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TStone V.I.P. Stockholm, Sweden 769 Posts |
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On Mar 15, 2014, Austin Fields wrote: I think you make a severe underestimation of Singapore and its citizens. English is one of the official native languages in Singapore, while it isn't a native language in my country, Sweden - still most magicians here associate "Ultra move" with "Harry Lorayne". Singapore have better education than both Sweden and the US, the same with everything else related to life quality, economics and knowledge. I would guess that an average magician in Singapore probably have more access to relevant material than an average magician in the US. |
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TStone V.I.P. Stockholm, Sweden 769 Posts |
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On Mar 14, 2014, Ihop wrote: Ah, I see what you mean! You mean 5 times previously to Harry's first publication, right? Close-up Card Magic (1962) is also one of Harry's books. It is rare that something evolves in a vaccuum, and the purpose of Denis Behr's archive is to make it easier to trace the lineage of a move. The listed items are not identical to each other. They are based on the same idea, but they are different in execution and handling. - The first listed item (1876) is likely ripped off from Robert-Houdin (1868), and so is likely the second notation as well (Greater Magic 1938). Those are not done as secret moves, but as a flourish. - The third listed item (Expert Card Technique, 1940) is the first attempt to make it into a secret move, but the way it is accomplised is the same as previous but shielding it from view with the other hand - not a very significant difference, but the intent is there. - In the fourth listed item (Card Control, 1946) we get the first "real" handling where the cards are secretly exchanged, but I don't think that handling was very efficient. And so on until Lorayne published that specific handling of the one-handed top change that today goes by the name "Ultra move". There are others that parallell to Lorayne have come up with different covert handlings of the same concept, but those appear differently and can not be confused for each other. For example, there are routines that rely on the Max Milton handling, which can not be performed at all using the Ultra move - and vice versa. The handling that is in question here is identical to the Harry Lorayne handling. |
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Ihop Inner circle Glen Spey, NY 1604 Posts |
TStone,
Thank you for the explanation.
Ihor
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orchid666 Special user u.k 626 Posts |
Has anyone seen this in its entirety? I just wondered if any credits are mentioned at all?
K |
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MueCard Inner circle 2964 Posts |
See, also a most interesting discussion of 2002-->
http://forums.geniimagazine.com/viewtopi......tra+Move |
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Bobby Forbes Inner circle virginia beach, VA. 1569 Posts |
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On Mar 17, 2014, MueCard wrote: Wow. Never knew some of that stuff! Great thread. |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Yeah, I do thank MueCard for letting me read again some of the cr*p from way back then. (Absolutely necessary.) Which, incidentally I've answered over and over again - things like I fooled people like Cardini and Vernon and Scarne before I published MY Ultra Move. I really don't want to go through all that silliness again (from some people who posted that a friend of there's showed me around a town in Sweden that I'D NEVER BEEN TO - things like that.
I do have a suggestion to all that think that silly thread makes sense - simple: Do all the tricks, effects, routines the world has learned from those things/people mentioned which most never heard of - I never did when I devised MY Ultra Move. And, the well-known people I mentioned above KNEW people like Buckley, and did not have the "sleightest" idea as to what I was doing when I fooled them with MY Ultra Move. So, please, please, stay away from MY Ultra Move and all the handlings/routines I've taught. That's fair, no? Best - Harry L.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
I think that Tom Stone's chronology of the move is both succinct and correct. Until Harry came up with his handling, refinements, and ideas, the Ultra Move wasn't used in any practical way, not even by Buckley. So, we owe Harry thanks for doing the hard work to refine this fantastic and practical one-handed change.
So, why re-hash all of the nonsense?
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
Exactly. And nonsense it is.
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