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necro555 Veteran user 335 Posts |
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On Mar 27, 2014, RandyWakeman wrote: Surprised that you are asking this, but nonetheless effects by Ortiz, Walton, Carpenter, Hollingworth, Steve Mayhew, Rosenthal and Fulves come to mind. I'm sure if you searched the magic Café for effects using a second deal, you will find some strong effects |
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Cardguy52 Loyal user 246 Posts |
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On Mar 26, 2014, Alewishus wrote: Stick to self working card tricks..... It's what Francois Dupont would have wanted. |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
I was quite young when I met Francois Dupont, and he joked that he thought most of my best card work and romance would be "self working".
Cheers. A. btw Do you have the Lovell book?
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
Mr Wakeman,
The second deal is one of the most useful sleights that I use. It is a wonderful move which has many uses for fixing errors when stacking cards, it allows wonderful forcing techniques, has great applications in gambling demonstrations and is the backbone to learning moves such as the double deal. Big names have already been mentioned. As for the Ultra move, I can see its usefulness, however I personally do not use it as it is not a natural action for me. I don't like showing the cards in that manner, but as always your mileage may vary. |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
Highly under-rated magician Martin Nash did some wonderful stuff with his strike second.
Why are we even discussing this? A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
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On Mar 28, 2014, Alewishus wrote: Because someone who specialises in the '21 card trick' questioned its usefulness, I believe. |
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Cardguy52 Loyal user 246 Posts |
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On Mar 27, 2014, Alewishus wrote: I don't have his second deal book, but he goes over a push off second in his book Simon Say's. |
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 27, 2014, Bobbycash wrote: All I can say is "good for you." It is hardly requisite for close-up card magic, and not remotely as valuable as many other moves. It is hardly a "bad thing," little is contingent on how it is used. But certainly, having spent many pleasurable years with Ed Marlo, knowing many of the people mentioned here (Martin Nash) first hand, and being the first person to publish Simon Lovell's book in a large sense . . . it isn't that I've not intimately aware of the better magic uses, beyond the gambling demo genre. It isn't any coincidence when folks are asked what great "second deal effects" there are, it is often the sound of one-hand clapping. Unhappiness with a second deal is no reason to "get out of magic" and what you might think is a good one is no particular reason to get into it. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Again, I would refer you to the complete Walton. They are not gambling demonstrations. Perhaps it is because he is British and does not wear a dead animal on his head in place of hair, that few seem to have heard of him. I'll never know.
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
I disagree Randy but really I don't mind. I'm not going to keep highlighting a highly useful move if it means I get to use it more and less people know about it.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
That's the spirit.
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
Y'know I never really contemplated getting out of magic; never really been in magic.
I have started performing here and there, and am enjoying the experience. I have to admit that Vlad's kind words are starting to have an effect on me - how does one remain so positive, especially here? I've figured this out: HL, to me, is the old testament and Vlad is the new. But I'm a backsliding heathen - tequila in hand. A. And I will master that second deal.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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hp Regular user 163 Posts |
Randy, Thanks for your comments on the second deal. It has moved down a bit on my list of things to learn. Howard
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts |
There is nothing “wrong” with a second deal, but it hardly rises to the level of a sleight that is in anyway a necessity to perform and entertain with strong card magic. In many cases, it is a weak, overhandled, clumsy, inefficient method. For example, let's say you want to force a card or do the “Stop” or Ace of Spades trick, dealing to a number named by the spectator. The spectator names “17,” so now you are doing sixteen sleights when you could be doing just one, or none at all.
Often, or at least too often, you'll see the “exposed second deal,” when the top card is turned face up and seconds are dealt just so the operator can exhibit “how cool” he is. It isn't magic and after exposing the second deal, we shouldn't wonder why it fools no one after that. Eddie Marlo used to remark when people would ask if they could see his second deal, “Oh, I sure hope not. I really hope not!” Eddie would get a laugh, of course, but he was making a point. How many times at a gathering of magicians, do you see someone asking how their second deal looks? Or, their Zarrow shuffle? Or, a pass? What is the effect supposed to be, for crying out loud? The “effect” (???) of a good second deal is nothing but dealing cards, the effect of a Zarrow is shuffling cards . . . there is no effect, it shouldn't remotely be interesting to watch. Dealing and shuffling cards can be accomplished by most talented third graders: there shouldn't be anything worth watching, attention-grabbing, or even mildly amusing about it. The idea is that you are doing nothing, so nothing should call attention to it. There shouldn't be anything fascinating about somebody doing nothing. If they think you are doing something, then you are fooling no one. You can deal and shuffle all day and all night, but no way is it as strong as if THEY did the dealing and shuffling themselves. Not remotely close. Do you want to give leave the impression that something truly impossible happened, that real magic happened, or that you are just another good card handler? There is the sense that you are struggling to get accolades for your own overtly displayed skill, and then there is magic. Which impression do you want to leave your audience with? |
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necro555 Veteran user 335 Posts |
Wow, your ignorance about the potential of the second deal is quite astonishing.
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JD Draws Things New user 67 Posts |
Quote: I see the point you're trying to make, but by that logic why are any of us even doing this? Anybody with any common sense or intelligence knows they're all just tricks.
You can deal and shuffle all day and all night, but no way is it as strong as if THEY did the dealing and shuffling themselves. Not remotely close. Do you want to give leave the impression that something truly impossible happened, that real magic happened, or that you are just another good card handler? There is the sense that you are struggling to get accolades for your own overtly displayed skill, and then there is magic. Which impression do you want to leave your audience with? |
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
That's fine Randy, leave it too others.
Of course you don't need a second deal to entertain, hell you don't even need cards or magic to entertain if entertainment is your only goal. In magic the second deal isn't essential, but there are many situations were the second deal is the best sleight to use, take for example Alex Elmsley's 'Diamond cut Diamond', there are other ways to do the effect, but the second deal is by far the most practical and baffling way to achieve this outcome. It is a wonderful tool, and should be in a card mans arsenal. It isn't essential and you can get around without using it as many have, but it is incredibly useful in theory and in practice. If you don't think it is useful in magic, well, I don't mind. As I said I'll keep using it for switches, forces, arranging cards, stacking cards and everything else in between. |
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts |
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On Mar 30, 2014, Bobbycash wrote: It is by no means the best, the most practical, nor the most deceptive: but that's why they call them choices. On page 42 of my first book, Formula One Close-Up (1985), you'll find the routine called "Cubic Zirconium" that illustrates exactly what I'm referring to. No second deals wanted, needed, or used. |
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
I'm sorry Randy but the effect that I mentioned the second deal is the superior choice of moves.
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Bobbycash Special user Australia 694 Posts |
How can you get more direct than the second deal for that move? Yes you have a version of the effect that doesn't require it (many do) but the reason the original stands out is that the effect is straight forward and to the point, a second deal is deceptive.
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