The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » In your Gospel presentations, do you illustrate repentance? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
Stephon Johnson
View Profile
Elite user
Razorback Country
499 Posts

Profile of Stephon Johnson
Well spoken Vlad. And Amen!
WHAT IF you wake up tomorrow with ONLY the things that you THANK GOD for today?
tbaer
View Profile
Inner circle
Pennsylvania
1921 Posts

Profile of tbaer
...and after I repented of my sin and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior back in 1972, I can continue to ask God to forgive me of my sins because of I John 1:9. I am so thankful when I confess my sins, God is still faithful and just to forgive me of my sins and to cleanse me from all my unrighteousness. What a great God we serve.
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1789 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On Mar 23, 2014, Vlad_77 wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 19, 2014, Terry Holley wrote:
Here are two "tracts" that were helpful to me in regard to this discussion.

http://faithalone.org/tracts/faith.html

http://faithalone.org/tracts/ycbs.html

In regard to 'repentance", it is interesting to note that the gospel of John, whose purpose is evangelism (John 20:31), never once mentions repentance!

Terry


Terry...

Your arguments stem from a relatively recent movement largely rejected by mainline Protestantism called "lordship salvation."
...........................................................................................
Lordship salvation rejects the very Scripture it purports to defend. (Revelation 22:19).

Yours humbly in Christ,
Vlad


Hi Vlad,

As you can see, I edited your previous post so that I could focus in on one concept. I don't think the edit poses a problem with what you were stating.

I don't have time right now to respond to you and the others in a concise yet cogent way, but I hope to be able to respond sometime this week.

However, I will point out that you are confused on my position and "Lordship Salvation." I in no way posit "Lordship Salvation." My position is better known as the "Free Grace" position. I contend that your position and the other positions that are being presented here are closer to the "Lordship Salvation" position, if not spot on.

Also, based on remarks that some have made in regard to what they consider to be my lack of ability in Biblical hermeneutics, I will share that I do have a Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Education as well as a Master of Divinity. This is not to say that I cannot be wrong in my interpretation, but I certainly do understand the hermeneutical principle known as "the analogy of faith", which some are questioning me on. I trust that you and others who read this do not receive the sharing my educational beackground as "one-upmanship". I am only sharing in an attempt to let others know that I have "done my homework" in a very literal way when it comes to hermeneutics and other Biblical subjects.

Best,

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Matt Adams
View Profile
Special user
Harvest, AL
826 Posts

Profile of Matt Adams
Thanks for your reply, Terry. I suppose the best thing to do is just show in the Scriptures why you feel that repentence is superfluous to a saving faith. It's obviously against Christian tradition - but that point alone doesn't make you wrong.

Is your viewpoint basically this?

Jesus came to seek and save the lost - from hell and from their sins. BUT salvation from sins FOLLOWS salvation from hell based exclusively on faith in Jesus as the one who gives eternal life. So to be saved from hell, all you do is believe that Jesus gives eternal life and that He gives it to you personally. THEN he will save you from your sins after that point of belief.

Is this basically what you are saying?

I guess I'd be confused as to why the devil wouldn't be saved then. He certainly believe that Jesus is the one who gives eternal life. I personally think the reason is because Satan won't repent (and possibly - so far as to say - he CAN'T).

I'm not of the lordship salvation persuasion either - but I don't really fault those folks either. What I've studied has led me to the fact that Jesus is sufficient for salvation (Jn 14:6 I am the way/truth/life. No man comes to God except thru me). A person trusts His substitutionary death as payment in full for their debt to God (based on the model of OT texts about sacrifice for atonement in addition to prophecies about Christ being payment for sin debt and then NT texts like 1 Pet 2:24 and 1 Pet 3:18 saying basically that Christ died for sins in our place.).

Once a person has repented (agreeing that sin is against God's standard) and believed that Jesus died IN THEIR PLACE because of their sin then God grants them eternal life. Again - it's not a work but a faith in Christ's atoning death (very mainline protestantism there...but completely 100% based on Bible and not tradition or church views or anything else, although Christian tradition backs that up.).

Sometimes we can talk semantics - and that's interesting - but I'm glad that whatever the case, that when God draws a person to Himself that person doesn't have to fully understand the intricacies of the doctrine of salvation, but must simply respond to the light God is presenting him. As God continues to give more light to his heart, a true believer will continue listening to his master's voice and yielding more of his life to God - becoming progressively sanctified.

The problem I see (and it's why lordship salvation was (and is) so popular) is that many folks pray "magic words" and go off thinking they are ok when nothing could be further from the truth. A true believer is a new creation! He will WANT to give up his sin and yield to God more and more. (Sure it might be a struggle, but he has new desires to please God.)
Website: www.MattAdamsMinistries.com

Instagram: @mattadamsministries

Facebook: www.facebook.com/mattadamsministries
robvh
View Profile
Elite user
Calgary, AB
445 Posts

Profile of robvh
Quote:
On Mar 24, 2014, Matt Adams wrote:
The problem I see (and it's why lordship salvation was (and is) so popular) is that many folks pray "magic words" and go off thinking they are ok when nothing could be further from the truth. A true believer is a new creation! He will WANT to give up his sin and yield to God more and more. (Sure it might be a struggle, but he has new desires to please God.)


This is key!

People memorize John 3:16 but neglect to read the rest of the Bible fully (let alone the tradition which the apostles told us we must uphold). We don't even have to leave the third chapter of John to get more clarity! John 3:36 reads "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Right there in black and white. We must obey also!

To pick and choose verses leads to a dangerous theology and one which too often has us choosing to believe what we want to believe so that we can do what WE want to do. This runs counter to what Jesus said we must do which is to die to self and to do God's will; to pick up our cross daily and follow Him. To paraphrase St. Augustine, "if you believe only the parts of the gospel you want to believe and not the rest, then you don't believe in the gospel. You believe in yourself."
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
What do we need saving from? What is it that seperates us from God? How are we restored to God?
God's gift of eternal life is a free gift we cannot earn, but we earn forgiveness through repenting. If we are not repentive of our sins, we are not sorry for doing wrong against God. How can we ever love God if we are never sorry for sinning against Him.

Salvation comes at a price. Jesus paid the ultimate price, but we are to pay the price every day through our faith. We are called to make sacrifices every day of our lives. The penalty of our sins has been paid for, but if you really love God, (which is what it's all about) you will obey God's laws. Not because you have to, but because you want to. You should have a passion and desire to serve God because He has revealed His love to you, and saved you from the punishment of death.

It is up to you to change your life, your habits, and avoid falling into temptation. We are called to a new life, a new birth. If our life does not show changes, then how much do we really love God? If you are not showing your love for God, why not?

Many we believe in God. Yes, even Satan and the demons believe in God. But...they do not love God. Love is the biggest factor. If you do not love God, you will make no effort to change your life for God. Real love for God will be your motivator. Real love for God will be all you'll ever need. You will want to make sacrifices, you'll want to make an effort to not sin. It will hurt you to know you have sinned against God. You'll want to repent.

If my faith in God is loveless, no matter how good I am, no matter how much I believe in Him, it is worth nothing. Repentance is just one small leap. God seeks our love, and our worship. Both love and worship are action words. Without those action words, our faith means nothing. It's as good as dead.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
harris
View Profile
Inner circle
Harris Deutsch
8663 Posts

Profile of harris
I read about your views here.

I am wondering like the OP, how or if you share these in your presentations at Churchs, urban ministry outreach.

It is a topic, I have not included, but am glad to read about. I look forward to reading how you have used it.

Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
I just wanted to add that I never believed that God saves us from hell. Not sure if there is clear scripture to support that. Although there could be. I know that salvation is being saved from the judgement of our sins. That judgement being death.

Eternal live is a gift from God. He gives it to us even though we could never earn such a reward. God gives this free gift to those who love Him. I don't believe "love" is work, but our love for God will produce many good works. And, those good works will be evident by the fruit we bare. If our faith produces no good work, how can we claim to love God?
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
One of the reasons I don't perform Gospel magic like I used to was because there were too many serious things I wanted to talk about and found tricks just took away from that. For me, I decided there was a time for playing and a time for teaching and discipleship.

I decided it was best for me to seperate them both. I still perform for churches, but the emphasise is on having fun. I throw in some tricks with a message about christian character and morals, but I leave the heavy stuff for lectures.

I used to perform a trick illustrating repentence. Nice illustration, but unless it can carry the weight of conviction, then it was non effective. Most of the time the children were more focused on the magic, and not the message. But, if you know children, they are the same when they open a gift with a card. They'll take the card off, put it a side, or read it rather quickly, then get to opening the present. The card may never be looked at again.



Quote:
On Mar 25, 2014, Harris wrote:
I read about your views here.

I am wondering like the OP, how or if you share these in your presentations at Churchs, urban ministry outreach.

It is a topic, I have not included, but am glad to read about. I look forward to reading how you have used it.

Harris
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Bryan Drake Show
View Profile
Regular user
Alabama
125 Posts

Profile of Bryan Drake Show
But that judgement would be spiritual death right? Ie eternal death? I don't know that's such a hairy issue. I do think that illustrations can be used adequately, but it is much harder than thought at first blush. For me it is a mixture.
Matt Adams
View Profile
Special user
Harvest, AL
826 Posts

Profile of Matt Adams
Quote:
On Mar 25, 2014, Bryan Drake Show wrote:
But that judgement would be spiritual death right? Ie eternal death?


That's correct - the payment for sin is death: which has the idea of eternal separation from God spent in Hell. So we are definitely saved from sin and hell but I don't think it's terribly important to have all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed when we ask God to save us.

For me personally, I don't do gospel magic. I just don't like mixing magic and the message. Some (like Bryan) can surely do this quite effectively. My PERSONAL view is that I don't want to water-down my magic with a story that I'm trying to simply "relate" to a trick and conversely I don't want to have to do a "trick" to make the story more interesting. They are BOTH amazing on their own accord and for english-speaking audiences, I don't have trouble holding attention through either portion of my show - magic and then message.

Now, it COULD be more effective in a foreign country if you have to use an interpreter. You lose a lot of time in communicating and people can drift because they have to wait TWICE as long to hear the thought - so I can see how using something to hold their attention throughout the "message" would be effective.

My transition is this:
I go from a magic show concluding with a floating table talking about "psychics and spiritualists" to do a "group mind reading." I then explain how I can't read their minds but rather body language. I don't try to make this terribly unbelievable, but rather something obvious that anyone can do with just a little practice. I then have them simply think "yes" or "no" and answer my questions to themselves. I then can present the plan of salvation and have people respond without raising their hands publicly. This has worked very well for me because they are all engaged and answering the questions without feeling embarrassed because I'm the only one who "knows" what they are answering. I will ask something like, "Have you ever told a lie?" And then scan the audience - claiming 90% of them admitted to it! While it's a serious topic, I still keep it lighthearted and non "condemning" if you will - allow them to condemn themselves rather than me saying things like "You are all liars!" Haha. It's been much more effective for me to just ask questions allowing them to see their need of a Savior rather than to tell them right away that they are just bad people and need to be forgiven. That's true...but a question stirs the conscience whereas an accusation hardens the will.

Just some quick thoughts. Hope they help.
Website: www.MattAdamsMinistries.com

Instagram: @mattadamsministries

Facebook: www.facebook.com/mattadamsministries
Danny Kazam
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of Danny Kazam
Jesus saved us from the penalty of sin, which yes, is eternal death. But, God doesn't save us from hell. We choose heaven or hell by either excepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, or rejecting Him. If we except Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, we will receive the free gift of eternal life. That's what I believe. For me, it also takes the confusion out of saved by grace, not works, and faith without works id dead. We don't work for our gift of eternal life, but we should be working at avoiding sin in our lives. Maybe that's what Vlad was meaning in another thread. Our Salvation is an ongoing process.

Quote:
On Mar 25, 2014, Bryan Drake Show wrote:
But that judgement would be spiritual death right? Ie eternal death? I don't know that's such a hairy issue. I do think that illustrations can be used adequately, but it is much harder than thought at first blush. For me it is a mixture.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
harris
View Profile
Inner circle
Harris Deutsch
8663 Posts

Profile of harris
As Jesus said It is done. It was.
and as the song/hymn,,,,,Nothing but the Blood.

Yes this would for me be done in talking not through a Gospel Illusion

Well perhaps by the compass prop.

Hs Smile Smile
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
Bryan Drake Show
View Profile
Regular user
Alabama
125 Posts

Profile of Bryan Drake Show
Good stuff Matt and Danny. Danny, I suppose to me it comes down to semantics but you are right we choose heaven or hell vs. being rescued out of its grips. I think that is the appropriate and oldest view anyway. When I present the gospel, there are no tricks. I do a prediction before I transition into the message. Up until 3/4 of the way through it has been a straight magic show. I then do the effect and say, magine right now what would happen if we get to this point in the show, and I have the wrong answer. You've seen all this crazy magic, but what would happen if I had the wrong answer? It doesn't matter how good or how bad the rest of the show is because when it all came down to it this prediction has been in front of the audience the entire time. If wrong, that's all they would remember. No redeeming that in their eyes. I say you wouldn't even be impressed if I was slightly off.

I then say this is a picture of my life and your life, but you just don't know it yet.....

And then it goes.
Matt Adams
View Profile
Special user
Harvest, AL
826 Posts

Profile of Matt Adams
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2014, Bryan Drake Show wrote:
Good stuff Matt and Danny. Danny, I suppose to me it comes down to semantics but you are right we choose heaven or hell vs. being rescued out of its grips. I think that is the appropriate and oldest view anyway. When I present the gospel, there are no tricks. I do a prediction before I transition into the message. Up until 3/4 of the way through it has been a straight magic show. I then do the effect and say, magine right now what would happen if we get to this point in the show, and I have the wrong answer. You've seen all this crazy magic, but what would happen if I had the wrong answer? It doesn't matter how good or how bad the rest of the show is because when it all came down to it this prediction has been in front of the audience the entire time. If wrong, that's all they would remember. No redeeming that in their eyes. I say you wouldn't even be impressed if I was slightly off.

I then say this is a picture of my life and your life, but you just don't know it yet.....

And then it goes.


That's clever - I like it. Still need to catch your show, my brother... Looking forward to the day! Smile
Website: www.MattAdamsMinistries.com

Instagram: @mattadamsministries

Facebook: www.facebook.com/mattadamsministries
Vlad_77
View Profile
Inner circle
The Netherlands
5829 Posts

Profile of Vlad_77
Quote:
On Mar 23, 2014, Terry Holley wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 23, 2014, Vlad_77 wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 19, 2014, Terry Holley wrote:
Here are two "tracts" that were helpful to me in regard to this discussion.

http://faithalone.org/tracts/faith.html

http://faithalone.org/tracts/ycbs.html

In regard to 'repentance", it is interesting to note that the gospel of John, whose purpose is evangelism (John 20:31), never once mentions repentance!

Terry


Terry...

Your arguments stem from a relatively recent movement largely rejected by mainline Protestantism called "lordship salvation."
...........................................................................................
Lordship salvation rejects the very Scripture it purports to defend. (Revelation 22:19).

Yours humbly in Christ,
Vlad


Hi Vlad,

As you can see, I edited your previous post so that I could focus in on one concept. I don't think the edit poses a problem with what you were stating.

I don't have time right now to respond to you and the others in a concise yet cogent way, but I hope to be able to respond sometime this week.

However, I will point out that you are confused on my position and "Lordship Salvation." I in no way posit "Lordship Salvation." My position is better known as the "Free Grace" position. I contend that your position and the other positions that are being presented here are closer to the "Lordship Salvation" position, if not spot on.

Also, based on remarks that some have made in regard to what they consider to be my lack of ability in Biblical hermeneutics, I will share that I do have a Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Education as well as a Master of Divinity. This is not to say that I cannot be wrong in my interpretation, but I certainly do understand the hermeneutical principle known as "the analogy of faith", which some are questioning me on. I trust that you and others who read this do not receive the sharing my educational beackground as "one-upmanship". I am only sharing in an attempt to let others know that I have "done my homework" in a very literal way when it comes to hermeneutics and other Biblical subjects.

Best,

Terry


Hi Terry,

I am eagerly awaiting your larger response and I must also thank you for the wonderful initial response. I like the fact that you are open to discussion and it makes my minority voice feel a bit more welcome. [I think I am now the lone Eastern Orthodox that visits and posts here].

As for lordship salvation, you talked about many positions here, including that of my faith are spot on and in fact represent lordship salvation. With all due respect brother, nothing could be further from the truth. Christianity has seen many new doctrines through the centuries and as such, lordship salvation would, relatively speaking, be the new kid on the block. I know however that Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, Roman Catholics, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Lutherans, and United Methodists reject lordship salvation completely. Stephon could answer more accurately for the Calvinist tradition as my interests from a purely historical view lie with the more liturgical churches (John Wesley never intended to break with the Anglican church; he is in fact buried in the Anglican church - his sons created the break from the Anglo-Catholic tradition). I am unfamiliar with this concept of "free grace" and as I am always willing to learn, I would be grateful if when you have the time and inclination, you would be so kind as to illuminate me?

Just as a frame of reference, for the ancient churches, grace is an example of God in His Energies rather than a "gift." I know that sounds strange as it IS a gift as we humans understand it, but, grace is, cataphatically speaking, a part of what God "is." It gets murkier because the notion of grace as what God is, that is to say, what is Present, can easily be confused with the Calvinist notion of "irresistible grace." In the same instance, salvation - or what we call theosis in the East which is a actually a bit more than compelling than the Western notion of salvation (and supported by Scripture and Apostolic Tradition) is a choice. While Christ defeated death by death and His resurrection and He harrowed Hell itself, we still must choose whether to work out our salvation with fear and trembling in a life long process, cheered on as evidenced in St. Paul's analogy of the race we must finish. It is therefore not a question of whether Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was enough - it was and is, but in the respect that we are called to be as much like Him as possible. He became like us so that we might become like Him.

I find it interesting when I encouter people who eschew good works when spreading the Good News - The Great Commission itself - IS a work! Smile

And lastly, I don't think your mentioning of your curriculum vitae represents a bit of one upmanship at all! God gave you the gifts to accomplish these very difficult degrees and you have glorified Him by your learning and accomplishing. Smile

+Humbly in Christ,
Vlad
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » In your Gospel presentations, do you illustrate repentance? (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.26 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL