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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Gospel magic vs. Christian illusionist (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mormonyoyoman
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"Stiff-neckedness" = a stubborn tendency to want to do things our way instead of the Lord's. It goes back a long way in our family, including ancestors who evidently didn't want to believe the words of Jeremiah, Ezekial, etc. And our family is STILL pretty doggoned stubborn. Get me to complain about my youngest brother and his tumors sometime.

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
Cybersloughter
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Quote:
On 2008-04-09 17:44, Gospel Dan wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-04-09 17:24, daffydoug wrote:
Cyber, I think you hit it right on the head when you said Christians can be hard headed! Kind of like stubborn sheep that don't want to be led.


Here's a postive way to look at that. Christians, some, most, however you want to perceive it, will not allow themselves to be lead astray with man made theology, but stand strong in their faith and spiritual knowledge given to them by God. They refuse to be lead by anything other than Jesus Christ who set an example for all of us to live by.

I believe it was Mark Twain who once said, "I do not want to hear about the moon from someone who hasn't been there" I guess Mark Twain was hard headed to, but I don't think he was a christian.


Dan, I wish it was always like that. I really do. I can't remember if it was this thread, or a different one with a similar discussion, but someone was talking about how at the church they used to go to their pastor "wanted to burn them at the stake" for doing Christian Magic. And the company I work for, before a recent major change in how we broadcast, we used to lease satellite bandwidth from a major satelite TV provider. When the transponders on the satelite started dying and we started losing channels, we had people call in and actually tell our reps that that rep was going to hell because we weren't supporting God's will and still carrying that channel. No matter how much they explained that supporting God or not, that satellite was dying, the person would still rant and rave.

I almost want to lead a new crusade or revival to remind Christians to be "Christ like" and to let go of some of that self-righteous indignation that gets aimed at people who can't accommodate their demands. We need a religious renessaince to remind people of what God can do and what we are supposed to be doing for God.

Okay, that rant is over...

Relating that back to the topic at hand (I think), I wonder where the line is that seperates acceptable things to do for outreach and ministry and what is not acceptable. I remember years ago hearing about a woman the was a stripper preacher who wanted to reach men who went to strip joints (I wish I was making that up). I know some people don't accept that magic can be used for ministry, and I know that where I currently work we have had many people say that "heavy" Christian music is evil. I personally go back to Paul's "all things to all people" but I remember having a conversation with a man in seminary who told me that a man could not be a youth leader because he had an eyebrow peircing...

JLJ
James L. Johnson

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

... a rigmarole with a few bits of paper and lots of spiel. That is Mentalism
- Corinda
Dan Bernier
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You know brother... I'm not going to argue over this, because it sounds like you've been hurt by people you think are christians. Anyone can call themselves christians, but that doesn't make them christians. These people that you are talking about are not christians.

Also, just a bit of advice. We should never use magic as the source to minister to people. We should be using love and scripture. magic is a just a tool. It doesn't make the message more powerful, nor does it make it more convincing.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Mat 7:24 "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Mat 7:25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
Mat 7:26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Mat 7:27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it."

Look for the positive in people, and beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.

I'll end with this quote, but I can't remember who said it. "I once complained about my shoes, until I met a man with no feet."

Posted: Apr 10, 2008 1:18pm
Gospel Dan wrote, "These people that you are talking about are not christians."

That was pretty ignorant of me to say. Especially without knowing more about them, or the circumstances in their lives. But, I hope my point doesn't get missed by that statement. Too often I hear christians complaining about christians, and I guess it bothers me to some degree. I find most of the time the christians who complain a lot about other christians are projecting something in their own life.

Cybersloughter wrote, "I almost want to lead a new crusade or revival to remind Christians to be "Christ like" and to let go of some of that self-righteous indignation that gets aimed at people who can't accommodate their demands. We need a religious renessaince to remind people of what God can do and what we are supposed to be doing for God."

Sometimes we need to listen to our own advice. We can't change the world by pointing fingers and finding fault with others. I'm not saying we should close our eyes, but we need to respond with love.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
daffydoug
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Quote:
On 2008-04-09 22:10, mormonyoyoman wrote:
"Stiff-neckedness" = a stubborn tendency to want to do things our way instead of the Lord's. It goes back a long way in our family, including ancestors who evidently didn't want to believe the words of Jeremiah, Ezekial, etc. And our family is STILL pretty doggoned stubborn. Get me to complain about my youngest brother and his tumors sometime.

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet


That is a tendency that God has slowly but patiently worked out of me over the years. It's the way we are born, I believe. Wanting to do things our way..thinking our way is best. Having no comprehension whatsoever of God's infinite wisdom.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
Joe Marotta
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I have to give a big T H A N K Y O U to Richard Osterlind for his wonderful contributions to this topic. Wow, this has been a great read! Very educational and inspiring. Thought provoking and compelling. Richard, I have some of your DVD's but have not purchased your books yet. I'll be sending you an order on your website this weekend!

Everyone PLEASE, do NOT purchase ANY of Richard's DVDs available at http://osterlindstore.com/catalog/index.php
I would like to keep his wonderful effects all to myself!! Smile
Richard Osterlind
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Thanks Joe, I sure hope you like what you get! Smile

For what we are talking about, I think I best express my viewpoints in "Principles of Magic". The "Trilogy" contains a lot of ideas, too, and was written earlier.

Richard
Terry Owens
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Don't kid yourself...Richard is using mind control...he has my order, Joe's order...who's next...lol

In all honesty, I just finished the Buisness of Magic and Making Magic real. I was challenged and feel if I will apply what I've learned, my audiences will be the benefactors. Looking forward to reading the Principles of Magic

Thank you Richard for such great material
mormonyoyoman
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Quote:
On 2008-04-12 20:31, Terry Owens wrote:
Don't kid yourself...Richard is using mind control...he has my order, Joe's order...who's next...lol


It's a sickness, I tell you! I'm so addicted, I find myself searching for something on Osterlind Mysteries which I haven't yet purchased. You know that $600 tax refund the government keeps talking about? I have to sign mine over to Richard.

*jeep!
--Empty-pockets-but-magic-rich Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
Terry Owens
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I've been pulled over three times for driving blindfolded by the police...lol
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