Hi guys
I have always took much pride in my coin rolling skills. until recently, when I read somewhere, I believe it was in a topic somewhere in these forums, about not doing any "flashy" moves when performing magic and how not doing these moves makes your magic more, well, magical!
I applied that theory to my card handling and went ahead and started performing with a very subtle addition of what I call "controlled sloppiness", not Lennart Green level, but as far away as possible from Dan and Dave Buck or any other card magicians who use a lot of "flourishing", no more fancy spreads and fans, nothing that might indicate to a lay man that a sleight of hand expert is performing in front of him, but that actual, real magic is happening.
Back to coin magic: my opener for coin work has been, for the past eight years or so, a coin vanish that utilizes the momentum of a reverse coin roll (huh??), here it is in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz_l9Nlwy8g
I have fooled more people than I can remember with this little bad boy alone, but for the past few months I have stopped doing it altogether, as I realized that this "trick" is but a demonstration of skill, and not "true" magic.
I now only show the coin roll at the very end of my performances, if people ask how'd I do that and this, at the part where I let them examine my coins and ask questions, I will then do the coin roll and tell them that it's all sleight of hand.
Thoughts on the coin roll? (or any other coin "flourish" for the matter)

Hi daniel…Welcome to the Café.

I must say that in most cases, I feel that when I see card magic that it is not "magic" at all…It typically comes across as skill to me, and still, I like card magic. While there are often times points of amazement as well, such as when you do a good Classic Pass and a face up card seems to POP! back to the top, like during an ACR. And even then the magi usually continues on where the sense of skill just overwhelms the moments. I have to admit that I like a good flourish with the cards and find Dan & Dave Buck to be extremely skilled artists in what they do, in and of which, they also happen to be pretty darn good card magicians as well. Heck, they did that card magic stuff first, before all the funky stuff with the flourishes, etc.

As to the coins, well I guess perhaps you make a good point, to a point. Your coin roll is better than most. As a matter of fact I cringe sometimes when coin magicians do coin rolls, as many don't do them well, even some of the big boy's coin rolls are left to be desired, IMHO. I've seen many a routine, absolutely flattened by them. Your CR is quite fluid, backward and forward, and the little vanish you do off it works pretty good for a quick trick, or done as a phase within a good One Coin Routine. I have something like that I do at times, too.

If you look around, a lot of the best coins guys, though they can coin roll good enough, they don't do it much while presenting magic. I don't either. Not necessarily because it tips any such hidden skill, but because it's just not along the lines of what I'm doing at the time, and really a bit out of place, so to speak.

I do a coin roll more often because I'm bored, more so than doing it to punctuate a feat of magic or to introduce it. But to each his own. I've watched a top coin guy like Mickey Silver do his thing many times, and never once saw the man do a coin roll, and I never thought any less of him…And if he had done one, after such jaw-dropping coin magic, I don't think it would've made me think one ounce better as to his work or presentation.

With all that said, I think there's nothing really wrong with a well-placed coin roll while doing magic. Just don't over-do it, do it in a bad spot in a routine, or just do it badly. :/ When done well and or appropriately put, it can be a nice interlude. And y'know, I've wondered if a coin roll is even sleight of hand (SOH) at all? I know I don't quite see it that way, but again, to each his own.

Again, welcome to the Café.

Like all things, I use the coin roll as me.

References I use depend on my audiences.

They can be my years playing Hold em in Nevada(I stopped gambling about 1993)

They can be Pirates of the Caribean movies

They can be stories about meeting Albert Goshman

They can be about my CDO. (ocd alphabetized)

......

I love the morphing of a coin roll into a routine.
Your vanish makes sense as it is part of an ongoing rather than flourish...magic time...flourish.....magic time....

I am guessing others have used the idea. I know I have....

It is good to think and create...and play.

I have used it to produce coins....cp 4 or 5...individually produce one..roll it across the fingers ....repeat...

It can also be done in reverse as a Vanish...


Harris
whose coin roll is not as top notch as it was 30 years ago...

You sit in a Café or some place and do a coin roll and someone is bound to ask if you are a magician, and you take from there. Coin rolls are immediatly recognized as magic, I love that. It can also be good misdirection should you need to adjust a coin in the other hand.I get my fingers going each morning with a coin roll or ten.

One of my references above is the connection with gambling and movies.

It shows up in movies every once and awhile as a character trait.

I used to be real good at trivia.
Can anyone remember if any Batman movies had the Joker rolling a coin..or perhaps 2 face??? or

This morning I used it in a 7th grade drama class. The class was on communication. I was a guest speaker.

I did the gag, I posted in another coin roll thread. 1, 2 , 3 and then I ask if they want me to do 4. The fourth is first rolled in the other hand...then on the same hand...That could have morphed into a 4 coin routine...but I went on with the talk about communication. Topic expectations.

Some peoples view of a magician is like the Card Twins. Other say to hide the skill...some even to portray a bumbling character.

Your show, your character...you decide.

Harris

Maybe it's just me, but the last thing I'd do is roll a coin in a restaurant to get noticed. It just looks someone trying to get attention. Again, just my opinion.

I like to incorporate the coin roll into an actual routine, but not as a flourish in and of itself. For instance, I often do a "one" coin flourish on the spot, but incorporate a second coin in the routine at an appropriate place. I use a nested [ for a vanish and production or two (clearly a single coin to the spec), and then roll it and de-nest the second coin and I am in business for the best part of the routine.

Using the coin roll as part of a vanish is also cool - well done Daniel 116.

Chuck

Another thought. I have used the coin roll while I was.

A. Vanishing an elephant
B. Changing 3 visible Chinese coins to Franklins
.... And then changed them back without the added "direction"
C. Changed 4 random cards to 4 aces or 4 previously chosen cards.
...,.. Some moves work better with. "Direction"
.......,,. Now off to supper--rice and beans with curry sauce..,

I did this for almost 20 years on the road as a truck driver. I would sit in the truckstop Café and do card flourishes and faro's. Someone would ask if I was a card shark and I would tell them "no, just a magician warming up a deck" next thing you know, I am performing close-up (cards and coins mostly) for a small group of drivers. Does it draw attention? Yes, but without attention, why bother learning magic in the first place? You have to get someone to watch you somehow. Just like a busker gathering a crowd or even a more formal event (like table hopping) someone has to bring it to the peoples attention that someone is here to perform.

I'm very torn about coin flourishes, including the coin roll. I love doing them, and have invested many years in learning them. Yet, I agree that the display of skill can take away from the quality of real magic. My brain says to leave them out of performances for audiences other than fellow magicians. Yet, I can't say that I actually practice that…..

Its ok to have different styles, and use them for different audiences. For example, play around with the concept of controlled sloppiness, and then also look to make the most flourishy routine you can. They are different presentation styles and work in different situations.

I have a technique where I coin roll keeping a coin in finger palm, and another where I use a dual hand coin roll to conceal a coin. The whole time, the audience sees me doing things with my hands and the natural assumption is that my hands must be empty. I can use it in a vanish similar to yours (although I do a forward roll version with a Himber-type vanish) and as a way of using a off coin as a magic wand to add for misdirection. This sort of thing goes over well in street magic or casual scenarios, impromptu, and with younger audiences at a bar when people have had a few drinks, I have found.

However, I am also working on being more adept at the "controlled sloppiness" - or as I like to think of it "no extraneous movements that suggest skill over magic." I've usually found that works better for parlor type magic with a set audience and performer where the expectations are different. The concept of displaying your skill does run counter to the mythos that magicians are trying to show, we want people to think it is magic and not merely someone pulling the wool over their eyes through quick hands. I think these routines are harder because I try to turn a 30 second "trick" into a full presentation - its tough and requires that all too elusive skill we call "showmanship."

I honestly haven't figured out which I prefer more, and I need more practice at both - both in terms of the moves and performing for different venues and audiences. I have much work to do putting together routines and full presentations to work out the details now, but I have found myself gravitating towards a mix of the two. I use the flourishy coin rolls and some card techniques, but when the real moves come around, I usually try to be as deliberate as possible. I have found it requires me to rely more on subtleties and nuances of tricks, and works to the strengths of both schools of thought. The flash moves give a feeling of wonder and skill, but the "simple" motions that hide the tricks look so routine and well... simple... in contrast that the only explanation seems to be magic... because "he wasn't doing any of that fancy stuff..."

MB brought up Mickey Silver, and he is a perfect example of what I am trying to explain. He uses some flourishes (I don't know the name of one but it makes it look like the coin is floating behind his hands as if it has a life of its own... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LP0q1rtco . Its the thing he does at 0:20 right before the retention vanish). Looks spiffy, but the contrasting simplicity of his perfect retention vanish make it look baffling. It looks almost as if the coin takes a life of its own. In other words, the skill he displays makes the magic moment that much harder to see, because it looks so normal in contrast. Its a different philosophy (to me, at least) than the flashy stuff Dan and Dave do where sometimes the magic moment has been de-conditioned simply based on the flashy stuff done before.

To me, its a way of fishing for the core impact of both schools of thought, and trying to see if they can dance together.

Great post bobthemagicdoerguy, I enjoyed reading it.

Nate Leipzig did a coin roll for starters. In card magic a neat LePaul Spread or a neat fan are considered ok and taken for professional handling. I think it is just when someone starts rolling multiple coins that it approaches juggling. In cards I prefer not to do the Sybil. The effect is the thing. What is the magic - does the coin really seem to vanish and reappear elsewhere or not ? Or whatever. In other words, why not put the practice into the miracle, not the flourish that is the precursor to same.

Getting back to Daniel's coin roll/vanish - I liked it ! Your roll Is indeed a rare thing, it actually flows across the fingers and looks amazing. As mentioned, there are quite a few otherwise good coin magicians who should be taken aside and quietly urged to drop the roll from their routine. Drop... !

I think regardless of anything else, you perform it CLEAN! And it shows the creative thinking that we possess, and we should all be putting to use!

I think it all depends on your character as a magician. If you present yourself as a skilled juggler than flourishes are important, and magic effects might even be less important or even unnecessary. However, if you present yourself as someone who has the power to do the impossible why would you want to use juggling to give your audience a possible explanation for that which otherwise would seem impossible.