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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Again, you're conflating disobeying orders with simply "not liking" someone.
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: You're trying to be technical rather than practical. You don't have much freedom or very many rights in the military. You give up your freedom when you join up. Now, you could get all technical like you would arguing a case in the courtroom, but that just doesn't fly on the battlefield or when you are relied upon to protect the nation's interests. You just don't and cannot have a lot of the luxuries that you enjoy in civilian life when you have taken the oath from a practical, rather than a technical point of view. Which is why one question would "do you know what you are getting yourself into?" If the truth is told, many who enlist and take the oath (including myself) did not do not fully understand what they were getting themselves into.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Not being "technical" at all. You wrote that one could get court martialed simply for not liking the President. That's completely false. Nothing technical about it.
In case you forgot, I served in the military as well. |
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: Yes, but somebody who dislikes the CiC probably shouldn't be in the military. That way taxpayer money isn't wasted training these people because they don't want to follow the orders of the CiC then you have to court martial and kick them out after spending all that money on training them. You do value your tax dollars don't you? And I am quite aware of your anti-war past. However, serving in the military, you are simply not permitted to attend rallies. I consider it dishonorable and it's considered dishonorable by the military itself. It's not your place to demonstrate against or in favor of anything. You have to keep a separation of politics from the military. As a former military professional, you should know that as well. The interview process in my view, could weed out people and select the best candidates for enlistment. You want to have quality out there and the taxpayer deserves good bang for their buck and the civilian authorities have to know they can trust and count on the military.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
So what happens in the military at election time, do you have to vote for who is in office?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Good example, tommy. I voted for George McGovern and I did't get court martialed. Like I said, I didn't like Nixon and was pretty vocal about it.
And General_Magician- before you start slandering me about my alleged anti-war past, maybe you'd like to elaborate. A very large number of people in the military were against the Vietnam war at the time. And how dare you call me dishonorable. You just don't have a clue, do you? |
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: And you said you wouldn't sue...famous last words! Throwing words around like "slander" sounds like you are setting up for a lawsuit. You come from a much different time and the military was much different when you were in as well. But I was also being honest with you.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Like I said, you really don't have a clue.
But you're right. The military was different then. We weren't the mindless drones that you seem to think they ought to be. |
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: I am not interested in getting into an argument. However, it is a fact that if you attend political rallies you are violating military policy and can face disciplinary action up to and including discharge, I am sure. You served during a time when their was not an all volunteer army and you had many draftees who simply didn't want to be there and were conscripted. That being said, I am sure their are many draftees who served honorably as well. However, I personally don't look favorably upon people who demonstrate for or against something politically, while they are in service.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I never participated in public demonstrations. I was simply opposed to the war.
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: OK, it's good that you clarified that. However, I thought you mentioned you participated in demonstrations back then and I do know of vets who participate in anti-war demonstrations. You seem like you are very politically minded. I think war is terrible but it's been programmed in my mind that attending political rallies is dishonorable. I have my political opinions but I am not a great debater or great political thinker either. Besides, politics is just really not my "cup of tea." I prefer to simply perform magic and make money and live the simple peaceful life.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
After I was discharged I participated in many anti-war demonstrations.
But if attending rallies was dishonorable, I guess you'd have to call many of our Founding Fathers dishonorable men. The right to assemble and protest is a cornerstone of our democracy. |
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: The mentality of the Navy seems to be much different than say the mentality of the armor corps or the infantry. My knowledge of history is spotty. Most of the founding fathers, to my knowledge, were not military men either with the exception of George Washington. George Washington also did not tolerate the breaking of rules and regulations in his ranks and ordered some of his men executed for mutiny, which those orders were carried out. Democracy is just not part of the services, especially in the combat arms branches.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Thomas Paine, one of the biggest rabble rousers, served with the Continental Army.
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: And I am sure, once he joined the Continental Army, he had to adhere to and follow the rules and regulations and do as he was told. And that his superiors probably would not appreciate him questioning their orders. And yes, I am familiar with the laws of war. However, realistically speaking, you can disobey orders at your own peril (a superior might think he is issuing you a lawful order but you might not think so and thus you disobey it and face serious punishment) and you can follow orders at your own peril (depending on if a court later on determines the order you followed is unlawful and you face punishment by a court, but it's hard to know what a court will decide). Its a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation at times.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Would you have obeyed the orders of, say, William Calley at My Lai?
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: In an extreme clear cut example like that, I certainly would not follow the orders of say, William Calley. However, things are not always so simple or clear cut. Not to mention, for failing to obey an order from a superior officer, even if it is an unlawful order, you could very well pay with your life during a time of war; especially during rough times when a unit has suffered casualties and KIAs and emotions are high such as in William Calley's unit.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
For following an order from a superior officer, if it is an unlawful order you could also pay with your life. See Eichmann, Adolf.
Just hope your side wins. Here's a dandy quote about Eichmann: Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal said: "The world now understands the concept of 'desk murderer'. We know that one doesn't need to be fanatical, sadistic, or mentally ill to murder millions; that it is enough to be a loyal follower eager to do one's duty."
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts |
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On May 20, 2014, landmark wrote: That's right. Darned if you do, darned if you don't. The German Army also executed people for not following unlawful orders. A superior who issues you an order might think it is a lawful order but you might think it is unlawful and then you refuse and get executed. And you're right, it pays to be a winner. Unfortunately for Eichmann, he was not on the winning side so it costed him very dearly instead. That's why, winning is so important during war time (nobody really wins though). It means the difference between life and death, safety and ruin, national survival. But the ultimate strategy is the prevention of war so you avoid all these crazy situations in the first place. But in order to prevent war, you have to prepare for war and part of prevention is deterrence. When the enemy sees you have a well led and professional force prepared to fight hard and well and die on behalf of the nation (and not retreat in the face of hardship), it makes them think twice about being an aggressor. Part of the reason why we were attacked on 9/11 was the failure of deterrence. Bin Laden had noted we had retreated from Vietnam and Somalia and had launched several terrorist attacks without paying a heavy price in return prior to 9/11. He concluded he could get away with something spectacular like 9/11 and thus initiated the worst terrorist attacks in American history. Which then led to the costly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Should I bother to point out that without the entire lot of our Founding Fathers not only demonstrating, but REBELLING we would have no country to speak of? I am not advocating rebellion.
I mean really without the right to assemble, a right which the Armed Forces fights for, we would have no country. General you say your knowledge of history is spotty. Yes it is quite spotty. But when it is so spotty and you KNOW this, why do you push forward instead of learning? Why not take on board what Bob has to say? I just don't understand the idea of standing by your opinion no matter what facts show up.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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