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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
The crash link in my routine is the strongest of the links. It is used in the beginning to grab the attention of the spectators, to set the image in their minds that two separate rings actually link (the spectator is holding one and I am holding the other), but most importantly, to completely shut down the audience assistant on stage.
Once he sees one ring actually melt through another, he realizes that this is not the trick he thought it was, he has no chance of beating you at it, and it is best to just play along and follow your lead. From his point of view, a truly solid part of your ring visibly penetrates his ring right under his nose. The build is from funnier to funnier linking and unlinking, rather than to more amazing. The comedy that develops during the routine will overwhelm the magic later, and a great linking and unlinking at the end of the routine would be lost. The Four Ring Routine is designed to create pictures in the spectators' minds that leave them with an inexplicable mystery when they try to reconstruct or "deconstruct" what happened, while using humor and entertainment value to keep them from thinking about the method as it is happening. They think back on the trick and remember that the spectator held one ring and you the other, and they linked together. Four rings are each shown separately. The spectator links his two together but can't get them apart. Both of you are holding two linked rings. Eventually all four rings are linked in a chain, and then three on one, and then all four unlinked and shown separately. The idea is for the spectators to easily remember all the types of linking that occurred, so that when they try to reconstruct the method, it is impossible. This is done by creating comedic "pictures" at each important point that you want the audience to remember. What happens most often after the performance, is that someone comes up and says, "I used to have that trick, but mine were different. One of them had a hole in it and three of them were welded together. I don't know how you did it." |
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Bob Johnston Inner circle Philadelphia, PA 1251 Posts |
The reason Whit’s routine is so wonderful is this:
It never makes the volunteer (or the audience) look stupid. Even when I do the Ninja Rings, I use as much of Whit’s routine as I can, Bob |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
You hit it... I figured the best way to use the Ninjas are with Whit's concept.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
The Ninja Rings and my comedy Four Ring Routine are very different. I love the Ninja Rings Routine, but it is for close-up. The challenge aspect doesn't come into it as much as in a stage routine.
When a volunteer comes up on stage to assist, it is just bad manners and bad theater to put him in a losing situation--I can do it, but see, you can't. By involving the audience and the spectator in a game of theater, in which the performer assigns roles to the assisting spectator and to the audience, this challenge aspect of the trick is sublimated. It is necessary to have someone examine the rings, and to try to get them apart in order to prove that the game is fair. But by making it look like the spectator is playing a trick on the performer, this necessary failure becomes a vicarious "victory" for the audience. They can pretend that it is the magician who is being shown up. Much of the fun is the manipulation of both assistant and audience into playing their roles, without any apparent effort on the part of the performer. For those who have only seen the performance on my video, I should caution you a bit. This was not a typical performance of the routine. Although Meredith was a lovely and charming lady, she never caught on to the bit--never spun the rings to try to fool me. She pretty much resisted every manipulation and tried to write her own script for the performance. She was the worst spectator we used that night out of six performances. Most six year olds catch on to the bit right away. Bob Kohler directed the video, and he decided to use this atypical performance on the video because he reasoned, most magicians studying the routine worried most about what would happen if the spectator didn't catch on, didn't take the hints, and didn't play the bit. He said this would show tham that everything played pretty well anyway. I don't know if this performance was the one that bothered Frank Starsinic, but I could certainly understand the remarks he made based on that one. I was deliberately speeding things up and trying to stay one step ahead of a beautiful, charming and relentless scene stealer. ;-) |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24314 Posts |
I have seen Whit perform this on a couple of occasions at Magic Island. I haven't seen the DVD, so I couldn't fathom Frank's analysis of the routine. Now that I have heard Whit's explanation, I understand the whole thing.
I think Bob should have put a typical performance on the DVD -- maybe both types of performance, actually. This is one of those routines where, when performed properly, the magic and the comedy are well-balanced.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Bob Kohler Special user 704 Posts |
As I've been involved in both of these legendary routines I have a few thoughts.
Obviously both routines kill! They kill in different ways and in different performing venues. I believe that magicians really need to use the information that is on all video tapes or DVD's and make a conscious effort NOT to do the routine exactly as the performer exhibits their routine. Let me clarify this. First, a student of a routine should learn everything exactly as the teacher. If you don't you will certainly miss a lot of important information. You should assume the performance has been refined by many performances. All aspects of the performance are tied together in professional thinking. Pace, timing of the lines, facial takes, technique etc. all need to be learned from the teacher. Once you really understand why a master does the routine the way he does, it's your job to take the information and make it YOU. Otherwise we'll have nothing but clone magicians. This is a strong arguement I hear very often concerning releasing routines via a video medium instead of books. Books don't make instant clones. My view is video medium is the best way to learn visual magic. But the responsibility of the student is to apply the lessons and customize their performance. One gentleman in this thread mentions using Whit's concepts in his performance of the Ninja Rings. I think this is great! Vernon after seeing Whit do his Comedy Linking Ring Routine stated that it was the first new comedy idea he'd seen in years. The principle of not seeing the spectator "successfully" achieve the linking is simply brilliant. On the tape, I chose to use the show where Whit had a difficult spectator. I did this because the explanations clearly show what is supposed to happen and how to make it happen. But it's very valuable to see how a pro like Whit can adjust his timing on the fly when dealing with a situation that may ruin the performance. Once you watch Whit's explanations, it's easy to see how to apply the principles and handling when you get a spectator who "gets it." Perhaps Whit will include another performance on the upcoming DVD. (If I can track down the old footage, I've moved twice!) We put his routine out years ago and I can tell you that Whit's routine is in more magicians programs than any other except for Terry Seabrooke's burnt bill routine. |
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gkfreed Special user 532 Posts |
Whit,
Copperfield uses the "successfully unsuccessful" spectator in his cut and restored rope routine. Did he get your okay on this before he performed it? |
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oldwilson_2000 New user Germany 77 Posts |
You're right. That's why I think this rope routine is one of the best routines that Copperfield ever performed. But I think he uses Mac King's rope routine?! If so, the question would be if Whit or Mac King had the idea first. But I guess, like so often, both had the same idea independently.
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johnpert Veteran user Ontario, Canada 322 Posts |
I've never seen Whit's routine but saw Copperfield's rope routine, which I understand is based on Whit's rings.
In any event, I started doing a ring routine based on what I saw from Copperfield. I think the magic is when you do your links on/off. Make that the focus and then redirect your attention to the volunteer to earn applause for them. I think there is a balance. Perhaps the speed at which you do your moves and redirect the attention is to fast?? just my thoughts, j. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.
It sounds like the routine would have been even more comedic if Merridith wasn't off "writing her own script" as Whit says. I'm glad nobody took offense at my original comment. This has been a much more informative thread as a result. I'm also glad to be reminded that Meredith was an unusual spectator. From a production standpoint, it seems a cheap venture to just roll the film and let several performances be included on the video (at the end). Gregory Wilson on his On The Spot video has multiple performances of some of his effects and I thought it was quite nice to see how he reacted differently to different spectators. Even some that just weren't that interested. Just food for thought. If I may analzye one move in particular for further discussion... The unlink that goes with the patter line... "No. You need to give it to more of a THIS kind of movement" Obviously the rings are surprisingly un-linked but the attention is on the spectator. This is an example of what I was referring to. During a typical rings routine, you "feel the magic" when the rings separate. In this case it's a surprise but not necessarily a "magic moment". At least not for me. I would be tempted, as the performer, to pause and act surprised myself to potentially increase "the moment" and to bring attention back to me for an instant. I don't know. What do y'all think? I guess I need to learn Ring Theory. Hopefully less difficult than my college math class of the same name. I also don't see anyone agreeing with me on this point so I will have to go back and re-visit.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Including more performances would have been great, but the tape was already an hour long, and would have cost quite a bit more to produce to add another 10 or fifteen minute performance.
David Copperfield used my original ring presentation bit in which the spectator is supposedly keeping up with the performer in his cut and restored rope routine on The Orient Express special. He did this with permission, and as you may have noticed, he listed me in the ending credits as a consultant. My good friend Chuck Fayne has a brilliant "You Do As I Do" color-changing handkerchief routine based on my plot, and he also asked permission to use the bit. Actually, the whole bit is published, and from my point of view, is in the public domain now. Anyone is welcome to use it however they find it helpful. I can't really comment on the particular link Frank is talking about, because that line isn't even in my routine. I suspect I was having a hard time keeping control of the situation with the indomitable Meredith, and fighting to keep her from showing me her rings were not apart. In the tape, the explanations and demos cover the way the spectator is normally handled, and we have several bits of different routines with different types of spectators at the end. At any rate, Frank, wait until you see me in a live performance, you will see how it is supposed to look. When someone is trying urgently to tell you something (Mine didn't come apart!), it is very dangerous to pause. The first link and unlink of the routine are the most magical, and the most emphasized and where the real magic appears, the rest are there mostly for the comedy and to make clear the fact that the spectator can't separate the rings, and the performer can easily. Then all the rings are linked in various ways, and unlinked one by one--very magically--to prove that all the rings, including the spectators, both link and unlink the same. By the way, Frank, I never mind criticism, and never take it personally. A performer has to separate himself from his work if he is going to improve, and I guarantee I am a much harsher critic of my own work than anyone. My grandmother was a well-known abstract painter in Virginia, and my grandfather a country born, self-educated man who owned a furniture store and was in construction. Whenever she asked him his opinion of one of her paintings, he would study it, and then say "I think it needs a little more red in this corner." She would get mad and throw him out of the studio. Then she would study the painting and realize that a triangle, or some other little design element was needed in the area he had pointed to. She told me, "You know, even people who haven't got a clue about the art, often point to the weak spot that needs improvement. If it was perfect, they couldn't point there. You should always listen to criticism, but rarely take advice, because very few understand enough to know what you are trying to accomplish. Just go to the spots in the work that they point out, and study them again." |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Thanks for the input on your routine Whit. I do really like it a lot. It's just making me think a lot about it.
Is there a set of rings that you recommend for the routine? As well as size? The magic store down the street offers a few different sets and I have no idea what to get. Thanks, Frank p.s. I used to want to learn Daryl's rope routine because I just loved it (and I still do) but I've never put the time into it for one very important reason.... As good as it is, one day I realized that there is little or no spectator interaction. I learned from my own performances that getting the props into the spectators hands is key for high impact magic. Your routine does this to a huge degree and is precicely why I'm wanting to learn it and why I'm asking questions. Thanks for you work. Frank Starsinic
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I use a ten-inch set of solid stainless steel Merv Taylor rings. They are my favorites. I also have a set of 12 inch rings, also solid and heavy. I prefer the feeling of the heavy rings, and think that spectators can sense the solidity and innocence of the rings when they handle them.
But it is really just a matter of preference. Some people find the heavy rings difficult to manipulate smoothly. If you like the light weight of hollow rings, get good ones. Owens are great. The main thing is that the rings should be able to withstand a great deal of abuse. You can't believe what spectators can put them through. The Taylor "Orbs Eternal" are just that. They are seemingly invulnerable. I have heard the same thing about the Owen hollow rings. But to start out, almost any decent set of 10 to 12 inch rings will be fine. |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Unless in a huge arena, ten inch rings handle best. The Owen hollows are great, but Joe Porper is now making beautiful rings.
Check ebay for possible bargains. What you don't want are SKINNY, TINNY rings.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Porper's rings are great. I highly recommend them. He also makes the "Splitting Ring" as used by Jason Latimer, and a great locking key.
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I'm on my way to Joe's today or tomorrow to pick up a set of his rings. See latest Genii for a great story on Porper's work.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts |
Hi Guys,
Can anyone tell me if this can be done up close with a set of 4 inch rings? If not, why not? Magically Aus |
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Poindexter New user Wisconsin USA 57 Posts |
Hi Aus,
If your intent is to perform Whit's routine 'as is' with the smaller rings in a close up setting, I think that you would sacrifice a lot of what makes Whit's routine effective. (And you would need to re-engineer some moves that become physically impossible with four inchers.) It is a Do-As-I-Do routine aided by a volunteer from the audience, and it plays to the audience (think Slydini's Paper Balls OTH). The size of your audience will be limited in a close-up situation, and it might be difficult for anyone to see what's happening in the volunteer's hands, since (the rings) could be mostly obscured. And then there is the potential problem of the volunteer viewing it as a piece of one-upmanship achieved at his/her expense: something that isn't a problem in a less intimate setting, due to the pacing and the structure of the routine. There is a lot to be learned here about proper people management though, and careful study of this will probably allow you to put something together that will work similarly in a close up situation. Plus it's just fun to watch. Pick it up; you won't be sorry. |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I think with people management, as mentioned above, your personality, and a few changes to the moves, you can do a WhitLike routine up close.
I have been playing with this idea myself using the Ninja Rings set. ******* Then again, you could work out your own routine and be "WhitLess."
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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PaulGreen Inner circle 1133 Posts |
Worked with Whit, yesterday, on a new project. He did his fantastic ring routine. When he was finished, I polled the audience and found that the "Rings" were the favorite items of the day.
When the magic is memorable, you've said it all! Regards, Paul Green PS He is a nice guy! |
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