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barts185 Inner circle Can you believe I've been wrong on 1355 Posts |
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On Jul 4, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote: This thread is about a FREE podcast, specifically about one that is by someone that by what other people in their locale say has cornered the market and is very successful, or did you not comprehend that when you replied? It seems like you didn't based on several of your points. Like in much of life, any success (or failure) is partly (sometimes mostly) luck. Put two people side by side (or worlds apart if you prefer so that they aren't interfering with each other) and have them live/work exactly the same, and the chances of them winding up with the exact same amount of success is basically 0. The link you provided links back to this thread. Did you mean to link to a different thread? To which of the "What Got You Here Won't Get You There" books are you referring? A search shows that there are several of them. "Remember that you can never advance any further than your chosen guru has. His advice has gotten him only so far. By definition this is the limits of your advancement." vs. "no student has ever gone farther than their teacher." Yep, totally different - I can see your point. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
A "guru" traditionally transmits knowledge through "experiential wisdom". Now maybe you know the difference in a "teacher" and a "guru". Teachers are not teaching from experience necessarily. A guru supposedly is. See the difference? If you did not know the difference, now you do.
Maybe it is not I with the trouble with comprehension? If you are going to get snippy and sarcastic, perhaps not suffering from EXACTLY the same problem you are being a nit about would be a good start. No need to lash out personally with the comprehension nonsense and make it a flame war. http://www.marshallgoldsmithlibrary.com/......_pt1.pdf It is not the whole thing but it really makes the point far better than some idiot linking back to this thread! Glad I am not a computer guru!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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barts185 Inner circle Can you believe I've been wrong on 1355 Posts |
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On Jul 6, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote: I'm glad that I don't feel limited by what anyone else has accomplished. Whether you want to call them a teacher or a guru, if anyone is allowing themselves to be limited, that's a shame. Thanks for the correct link, although it seems to be by one person that helps many supposed gurus go further than they have already gone, even though he's not a guru in their field. Back to the topic at hand, which is a free podcast, I thought that Doug did a nice job and appreciate him taking the time to make the podcast. |
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
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On Jun 28, 2014, Paddy wrote: It sounds like Donald said the way he makes $1,000 is doing 4 shows a week ($250) which is about the go rate in my area sometimes less. My friend is a full-time kid's show performer and that is about what he makes on average and does 20-30 shows per month. I only do them occasionally but mostly stick to other venues which consist of all ages but I do get a lot of calls for kid's shows still so sometimes I do them. But this is a common tactic used by these marketers which is in itself deceptive and even dishonest, as they create the impression that one will make $1,000 doing ONE birthday party which seems to be the impression that you got so it worked. BUT when you look inside you realize that you need to do FOUR shows in a week not one. I don't know any parent's who will pay that much for a kid's show magician, heck they would not even pay that much for the presents! They want to pay $100 usually TOPS if they could some want to pay even less. The reality is there is not much of a budget left after the gifts, supplies, and cake are bought if they are of average income. But the rich parent's think it is cheap usually for an entertainer. This type of deception is done purposely to sell the product and then they try and cover themselves inside and explaining that there is a lot more to it than the one line of text on the cover had you believe. They earn their living marketing to magicians not booking shows, because if they did they would not have time to make these types of books unless they were retired or not getting booked much at all, which would in turn make their product useless if they can't even book shows themselves. They could say "Up to $1,000 a week" which could mean a plethora of things, if you do more shows, if you get repeat bookings, if you get 4 referrals from that show etc. Very clever, misleading, and deceptive but also in the end true overall just not how they want you to believe before buying the program. Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, Paddy wrote: I'll take the bridge for $100,000. I will send you a check for $500,000 then soon as you get it send me back $400,000 via paypal and then cash the check the next day. My real name will be on the check which is U.R. Asucker.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
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On Jul 25, 2014, sirbrad wrote: Again, someone offering un-informed information. Listen to the podcast, before giving a review of its contents. Yes, Andrew does talk about getting $1000 for a single birthday party show, and talks about being paid that amount again and again (his standard fee for that type of show). - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
He "talks" about or does get $1,000? Sorry but I just tend to live in reality not in the fantasy world of what podcasts and marketers try to sell me. I don't need his program nor do I have the time to sit and listen to his "pitch" as I am to busy preparing for shows. It would most likely be a waste of time anyway as you would need to buy the program anyway. It doesn't matter if he did make $1,000 for one show you will not make that consistently and if you believe that you are delusional. Not in my area anyway. I would love to see proof as opposed to "talks" because I am not so "uniformed" that I believe everything I hear on the internet. The Café is full of "affiliates" and mostly the same ones pitching stuff for their buddies. I have been here over 10 years and I tend to notice those things, we know who they are. So it is you that's "uninformed" if anybody.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
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On Jul 25, 2014, sirbrad wrote: I completely understand what you are saying here but for some reason others don't seem to understand it or see it that way. It makes you wonder how much time these guys have on their hands? They certainly can't be conducting their business and doing shows for a living. Who has that much time to view or listen to podcasts, videos, and lengthy blogs? Plus more and more of these keep popping up and being promoted here daily. It's becoming like Facebook, that every time someone does anything they have to post it, record it and tell everyone to invest their time to "check it out". Pros I know don't have time for this. |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
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On Jun 28, 2014, Mindpro wrote: On the other hand, you also said this. - Donald Quote:
On Jul 25, 2014, Mindpro wrote: Here's how I see it. If one member writes 120+ posts on the Magic Café in a month, and another member writes 40+ posts on the Magic Café a month, they might have time to listen to a podcast or two. They are just managing their time differently. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
Yeah that is what I said, they are either lying or they are retired and most of these guys look far too young to be retired. I listen to some podcasts that interest me usually while working though, posts on here are much faster and I am a fast typer. Podcasts are generally an hour or more. Being a full-time performer is a 24/7 job and usually when I post here it is during lunch breaks ad I only post if I feel strongly about something which is why I only have 1400 posts in 10 years. But then you also got people here with 15,000-25,000 posts some in only a few years which tells me they are just hobbyists on forums or retired. But then again some try to boost their count posting one sentence responses all over the place, or engaging in long-winded arguments in every thread they post in. But back to the marketing subject, as I said already these people market to magicians and most seem far too young to have any kind of proven experience. I could release my own marketing program tomorrow based on 34 years experience however I am still busy making a living doing magic and performing magic.
I also know that selling to magicians will not generate even close to the revenue that I make doing shows for laymen. So these marketers are already rich, retired, working part-time, or someone else is paying their expenses or a portion of their expenses. They are as I said before "faking it till they make it". Most of the information that they provide is common sense even to someone who does not know anything about business, and they could get the same information much cheap via a marketing book on Amazon for $10.00 such as Guerrilla Marketing or any of the other thousands of books on the subject. These "magic marketers" simply take these lessons and apply it to magic, repackage it all with fancy magic talk and sell it for 200-300% more. So really they would not need much magic experience to make such a course. It is the same as almost any other marketing field. The information may still be valid and informative it is just all repackaged and sold for a much higher price so these can get rich, or at hope they do. But not everyone out there has the ability or willingness to do all of their own research, some would rather just pay a high price to have it all done for them. That is their choice. I personally learned everything on my own as a teen as there was not as many resources available, nor the internet back then to make it all appear at the touch of a button. It is fine that they are trying to make a living doing it all but the dishonesty and deception of the hard-selling is annoying and is done in an effort to take advantage of the "uninformed." So again, I am not saying the information is not good or valid I just don't agree the misleading advertising and their assumption that everyone is stupid and will just buy it right away. Not all marketers hard-sell or blatantly lie but many do. But that is why we have this forum also to filter those out and determine who actually is honest, and who really offers "100% satisfaction or your money back!"
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
It amazes me how magicians focus on the wrong thing.
Post count is the strangest fixation used to prove anything. 15,000 plus seems high. But in the 9or 10 years being here it is what 3 or 4 a day? It that really a LOT of posts? Does it prove I do or not have time on my hands? I too am weary of the constants barrage of the same stuff. Then the inevitable guys saying stuff like "soar little eagle soar" while they encourage these guys to peddle lies. Then every seller is in here encouraging thew others and they all join a circle and hold hands encouraging each other and calling the few of us who ask for honest answers names. As if asking questions is bad. But whatever most know these guys for what they are good or bad. My laughter comes from the claims they make. Some worse than others. Problem is kids starting out, who are ALWAYS the target of these guys, can go broke from the bad advice and lies. THAT is why I speak out. The whole support guys starting a new business bs that some claim here is fine until that business is taking money from unsuspecting kids. Then it is not cool.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Wow, two of the best posts I've seen here in recent years. Sirbrad hits the nail on the head with almost every line of that post. No need to name names as anyone here knows exactly who he's talking about, and his perceptions are spot on.
Experience comes from time and the art of doing, modifying, redoing, remodifying until the final level is reached with all of the kinks, bumps and rough spots are worked out. Time is a factor. Who can do this in just a few years, 5 years, and even ten years? It is really ridiculous. I too speak out for the exact reasons Danny mentioned. The two main reasons is they may not know any better due to inexperience and naivity AND for the false encouragement offered by many here. "Soar little eagle soar" and other such examples is exactly what leads to false encouragement ultimately in discouragement, setbacks, frustration, depression (or worse) and as mention loss of much time and money that is lost and wasted. Sure basic encouragement is always fine, but not to the point of creating a false sense of belief or making something appear easier and more effortless than it actually is. Most of us will agree, we have learned much more in our lives from reality checks, tough love and the truth or yes...and real experience. The other things that often runs rapant here is guys talking about things they actually know nothing about. Seems to me there are two types of posts here - those based on fact and experience, and those that are opinions based on no experience just personal perception or preference ( and of course those just to go against and flame those they don't like or care for). Again, younger newcomers can not always tell the difference. I can't tell you how many times, nearly daily I am thanked for separating the two, speaking up and speaking from actual experience. Also yes, magician's have a very unique way of existing when it comes to their performance, their performance and the people and products the choose. They are literally unlike any other type of entertainer I have ever worked with and I have worked with a lot. I have my own theories for this). Credibility often plays little role, but the false compliments, support and fairy dust encouragement seems to prevail. What is almost always true is in the end, it all comes down to credibility, content and quality. Sure there may be some initial short term gain, but see who is still standing when the smoke clears. Now days everyone has something to say, often for little or no reason or purpose. Worse yet they believe that others seem to want to hear their babble. Tech and media allow these guys the opportunity because its cheap and easy. If these podcasts cost $1,000 each to do or produce, you can bet your *&^ the fluff would quickly disappear and the creme would rise to the top an be the only ones that exist. |
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
Yeah exactly. I also was referring to posters who get that many posts in only a short amount of time and seemingly live on the Café 24/7. I saw one guy get 5,000 posts in 3 months years ago. That is fine if they are an enthusiastic hobbyist and not claiming to be a professional. Also some post way less posts but a lot longer posts or argue and bicker in almost every thread which makes me wonder why they are here wasting their life fighting with magicians every day. I used to get caught up in that on Penguin years arguing with the Angel fanboys and it was such a HUGE waste of time and none of them are around now of course. So I try to stay out of that stuff now as much as I can and try to stick to civilized discussion. That is hard to do on the Café most of the time. I guess you could have 20,000 posts in a few years and still work professionally provided you don't do anything else except magic and post on the internet. But generally as a professional you would rather be practicing, rehearsing and performing shows which is what I do mostly anyway. But I also like to take breaks and post some when I get time. The Café is so big though that I only post in certain areas as I would never have time to view all of the sub-forums. If I was only a hobbyist I would probably be on every one of them eagerly all day and night reading them all. But only after I had put the work in. I mostly look for reviews anyway or express my opinions on products and viewpoints based on my own experience.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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barts185 Inner circle Can you believe I've been wrong on 1355 Posts |
Not that this thread was about the 1,000 party, but since it has been brought up here, I'm genuinely curious:
The people who say that the 1,000 a show is a ridiculous price and can't be done, you know because you've tried to do ANYTHING that was suggested in the free podcast (either before the podcast or after listening to it) ? Or just because you know because you've been doing it the same way forever so you know what you can charge? For example, you've done the following: 1) Scouted out and joined the high end clubs / country clubs to make contacts with people of high net worth 2) Become involved with high end private schools 3) Traveled to Dubai (or anywhere outside their immediate market) to somewhere that has higher costs and higher net worth individuals in order to market shows there 4) Set up a different persona for doing high end shows so you're not bogged down with the prices that you've been charging? I know I haven't done this yet, but am actually curious if anyone has actually tried anything, or is just dismissing it because they KNOW it won't work even though they've never tried it. |
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Brilliantballoons New user 1 Post |
I thought I would just add a comment or two in reply to the comments on this great thread.
Firstly, I am Andrew, and YES I do charge $1000 plus per party. I started my life in sales and marketing and made a very good living as a top performer and top manager until I was made redundant three times in two years. I then became a full time entertainer and scratched around like a chicken for shows and parties. As I got better, my act had to improve!!!!, I started doing shows for high net worth clients. It became obvious to me that I was being paid a LOT less than the decoration, or the catering company, and EVEN the party Bags. I decided this needed to be addressed and started to put up my fees. An amazing thing happened…..I was no longer treated like ‘the magician’ I became respected and called by my own name. I no longer got changed in toilets …I was given a room to change and shower. As I put my fees up, I got more and more High Net Worth clients. I used my sales and marketing training ….received from twenty years working for blue chip companies, to ensure my message to the client was better than my competitors…and I have moved on up with my fees. The reason I wrote my book, $1000 birthdays, is to help other entertainers and try to show you that perhaps you can charge more than you are now. As for the time to write a book…well we can all find the time if we are motivated…….stop reading all the forums, cut down on face book, stop watching the TV….Stay up an extra half an hour a day…. 30 minutes a day writing soon adds up to a book over a couple of months. I too have bought many a course…..from inside our industry and outside. Some great and some not so great, Some expensive and some not so expensive. I find that even the poor ones there is something that I either need reminding about my self, or is new. I always look to see if its the price of a show or less then if it will get me just one extra show then it was worth it. I believe in ongoing learning. I priced my book at just under $25. Its a little step by step course as much as a book. Worth it? well that's not for me to say, I think so, what I share in the book will certainly pay for itself. Is the book for everybody? No certainly not, many magicians have been in the business a very long time and do not believe they can charge more money. that's fine. They may feel out of place charging more money than the party bags. My clients have, very big houses, several new cars, and a few classics, they fly first class, they are famous and want something different than ‘a magician’. I am CERTAINLY not saying I am better than you, I am saying that I market myself to the High Net worth clients, pick the best and go for them. You must have a GOOD product to sell….you don’t have to be the best. Please if you have any questions please drop me an email, or reply to this post….I will pop in and take a look occasionally. |
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AReady New user 7 Posts |
Personally, I find these podcasts incredibly helpful. Some episodes naturally have content more suited to what I'm doing than others, but I always get at least one new idea worth trying. It also gives me a different perspective to consider. I listen to them in the car and find it much more helpful than just listening to the radio. The ideas and people I've been exposed to in this way has broadened my horizons, and I think everyone involved is doing a great job. You don't have to buy every book mentioned, or follow up every idea, or even agree with everything said, but it will certainly get you thinking.
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
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On Oct 6, 2014, Brilliantballoons wrote: Great quote! I initially skipped this thread, as I have been "Podcasted Out" for a while. Reading the thread today was interesting, with many important perspectives shared. I listened to the Podcast with Andrew this evening. I thought it was interesting and thought provoking. It got me thinking about "Business Models" that Mindpro often speaks of. Andrew speaks of a model that has proved to be highly successful. That is, targeting high end clients that pay $1000+ for his birthday show. He suggests everyone who is listening to raise their rates immediately to initiate the mindset of charging $1000/ show. I disagree with this logic. One should only do that if it fits their business model. For example, if McDonalds raised their prices significantly, people would move to Burger King because McDonalds has branded themselves as predictable quality and inexpensive. Unless everything about their business model changes, just increasing prices would fail. I thought of the Business Model of The Great Zucchini. He charges a flat rate of $350 for a 45 minute show. He perform in street clothes and takes minutes to set up/take down. He can do three shows perhaps in less time than Andrew does for one. He also spends no time marketing his shows. Other performers do not have the skill sets that Andrew or The Great Zucchini have, but leverage SEO to grow business. Raising their rates may likely hurt business. I did like hearing about Andrews business model and am going to look into more details about his book because some of the points he made on the podcast were interesting., but I think one needs to think about their own business model and capabilities, rather than just believe someone else's will work for them. |
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Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts |
It's been a long time since I've been in these forums, and I certainly used to spend a lot of time here. I learned a lot and applied a lot of great tactics. BUT, it's attitudes and threads like these that prevent me from spending much more time here:
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On Jul 25, 2014, sirbrad wrote: Way to assume the guy is lying before you ever even know the perspective. You, sirbrad, have assumed you cannot get $1000 for a birthday before you ever even asked for it. And, I know several performers who make $2000-$3500 for a birthday party. YES, that is not a lie or coupled up deception. They truly get that amount and I'm happy for them. Andrew is an incredible person, one who has inspired me beyond what I thought I was capable of. And all I know of him is of this podcast and from an outside business group that we both happen to be members of. I see him post some great things, and its absolutely no lie that he gets $1000 per show. In fact, he likely charges at the proper price point, but I think could get more if he asked for it. Let me turn the focus to some simple math for everyone: If you want to be a full time entertainer, and live comfortably in America, you should make about $50,000 a year NET. If you do 3 shows per week @ $500/show, take 2 weeks vacation (meaning you work 50 weeks/year), you will make just enough (not including business expenses) to make the $50,000 per year. Meaning, you are under charging at $500 per show... You are way under charging for yourself. You don't value yourself beyond the frugal attitude on the other end of the phone line. You are associated with people who don't have much money, but you will take what you can get. That is a waste of time to me and a bad attitude. How about this... You value your time like it is the most important thing on the planet, and charge more. You elevate yourself, your family, and the art/business. Phillip and Henry called me this week. Somehow they got my info and had some sort of "gig" that they wanted to book me for (which mysteriously was booked when I called back). When they asked the absolutely minimum I would do a show for, they were in shock. They were shocked because I valued myself above "fast food entertainer wages" ($100 per show). Above minimum treatment that they typically can haggle performers down to. And that makes me sad. It makes me sad that people in our industry value themselves so lowly. AND, that there are businesses out there that convince performers that they are worth nothing, and they should be happy when the phone rings with a wage that is basically worth thing to their overall lifestyle. For all hell's sake, start charging more. Start showing people that you have practiced for hundreds of hours, and gotten real world experience to do good work when they call. We are worth more, so charge like it. If you are working your way up the ranks, understand you need to grow as a business person too. You need to set stepping stones for yourself and keep pushing. If you listen to the negativity out there, you won't go higher. There's a story I've heard about sea crabs. If you put them into a bucket with no water, some will try to climb out. Instead of the other crabs trying to push them out, they use their claws to pull them back in... You don't want to be associated with people like that. End of rant. This forum has some great info packed in it. You DO have to search for it. |
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Rodney Palmer Inner circle 1317 Posts |
@Brilliant Balloons,
Can you post a link to your website? Honestly I do not believe that you are getting a $ 1000.00 for a Birthday Party. I know many very High End Children's Birthday Party Performers who work exclusively for the Stars or the Rich and Famous. And they are only getting $ 750.00 max for a show. And these are very HIGHLY Skilled Performers who have way more to offer than you do and have been in the business way longer than you. I doubt that you have as good as show as these other performers but maybe you do. Can you show us or lead us to some You-Tube or Privates Videos? I might just change my mind. I will give you the benefit of the doubt if we have some proof. Since you do not list your real name, have no website listed, have been a member since 2013 but have only 1 post does not say much. But I sincerely want to believe you. But most people will get defensive and say to everyone I do not have to justify this to your or anyone else. I have never heard of your book. Where can it be purchased? What are the contents? Thanks for you anticipated time, Rodney
"Creating Memories That Last A Lifetime"
In order to keep "MAGIC ALIVE" Please become a Mentor to a Young Person. |
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Natural Mystic Special user Atlanta, GA 509 Posts |
"You never change the existing reality by
fighting it. Instead, create a new model that makes the old one obsolete." -- R. Buckminster Fuller |
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Natural Mystic Special user Atlanta, GA 509 Posts |
"You never change the existing reality by
fighting it. Instead, create a new model that makes the old one obsolete." -- R. Buckminster Fuller |
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