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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Histed Heisted With 5 People (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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shakuni
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Is it possible to do Histed Heisted with 5 people having 10 cards each? Please give me a hint. Thanks!
baobow
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I think in theory could be done but in now way is streamlined as the original method /process

Just thinking of the top of my head for a potential solution:-
You would have to be abit more savy / intricate with you stack perhaps. For example, for one spectator you hand them cards 1,2,11,12,21,22,31,32,41,42 (If you are familiar with Histed Heisted you get the idea). I would possible have the x1 cards red, and x2 cards black. By asking an additional question if their card is red or black, you can narrow down on their selection. I don't know if this would work for the whole deck stacking it this way, but you have asked for a very specific problem.


Alternatives perhaps:-
Doesn't quite meet your requirements of having 5 ppl having 10 cards.....but

- Richard Ostlerind's Radar Deck allows you to name 4 thought of cards in a very very fair manner. In the spectators mind, they feel they have thought of a card from a selection of 12 or so cards
- Do Histed Heisted the standard way with just 5 ppl and 5 cards. Nothing wrong with that, you can really build up on presentation here. Make the other half of the deck not matter.....
- 4/5 Breather crimps and let you spectators shuffle to the hearts content and cut to a selected card.


Happy to hear back from you Shakuni with your thoughts
Nick Pudar
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Can be done as started by baobow, and does require one fishing question (eqivoque) per spectator if you read off batches of 10 cards. However, you can avoid the fishing if you read off batches of five cards at a time -- but this is not elegant and can get boring (and revealing).
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Steven Keyl
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Histed Heisted is ideal for a larger group of people. If you have fewer people you may want to try something very similar in effect but wildly differing in method...

"Impromptu Paul Fox" by Allan Ackerman which can be found in Las Vegas Kardma.

Effect: 4 spectators are each given a bunch of cards from a freely shuffled pack and asked to think of one and shuffle them up. Performer takes back all the packets and shuffles them together. Performer shows a bunch of cards (or names them) and then divines which card each person is thinking of.

Pros: Genuinely shuffled pack, not all 52 cards need be present, works with fewer specs than HH but is nearly the exact same effect.

Cons: Requires ability to faro shuffle. 4 is the number of spectators and the number of spectators shall be 4. No more... no less. 5 shalt thou not count, neither shall thou count to 3 except thou then proceed to 4. 6 is RIGHT OUT!
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Dr. JK
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While it is possible, I agree with the others here that it's not practical. From the standpoint of Aronson's write up, you lose the justification for the reveal procedure, IMO, with only five spectators.

I have changed to Osterlind's Radar Deck when I want the same perceived effect. To my way of thinking, it's more direct and actually more entertaining since it's "shorter." Don't get me wrong! Each has their place, but I've decided that for me, the Radar Deck is a better performance option. Good luck to you in deciding!
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Steven Keyl
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Jeff and baobow have a good point with Radar Deck. It's more amazing than the trick I referenced above because the spec ostensibly can choose any card from the deck as opposed to being given a choice from a much smaller group. If you're heading into a professional performing situation I would opt for their recommendation and go with the Radar Deck. "Impromptu Paul Fox's" biggest virtue is the impromptu nature of the effect but that doesn't seem to be a consideration in your case.
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JanForster
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Look up here and you will find many ideas, also mine. It is possible to use 5 spectators, in fact it is my way to go:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&start=0

Jan
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shakuni
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Thanks to @all for help. I am looking into the resources mentioned.
lcwright1964
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Quote:
On Jul 4, 2014, baobow wrote:

- Do Histed Heisted the standard way with just 5 ppl and 5 cards. Nothing wrong with that, you can really build up on presentation here. Make the other half of the deck not matter.....




I have to say that this is how I would do it. One need to set up only half the deck, and this permits a very free handling of the cards because we only have to keep the top stock intact and this allows for (mostly) genuine Hindu or jog shuffles, etc. Coupled with passing out the packets of cards casually, without bringing attention to the number, goes far to solidify the illusion that the deck is mixed and there is no way the performer could possibly know who has what.

With respect to (mis)calling the cards (actually the stack), I have been mulling over a couple of refinements and subtleties. First, there is no requirement that one call out each group of 10 in stack order--one may call them out in any order (regular order, reverse order, odds then evens, evens then odds, combinations of these), and, moreover, one may take each group of 10 in whatever order one likes (11 to 20, then 31 to 40, the 1 to 10, etc.). This may play really well with stack-savvy magicians who will notice right away if one is calling out a familiar stack like Aronson or Mnemonica in 1 to 52 order. Second, to save time, one need not call out every card in every group of 10, since only the first five cards of each "decade" of cards is in play. One can call out as many of the ten as one wishes, provided that the first five in each group are named. This could make things go along quicker yet still be quite mystifying. Naming, say, 4x7 = 28 or 4x8 = 32 cards cards vs. the 40 in the full effect does tighten things up yet still leaves the impression that a goodly number of random cards have been called.

I have one question about working with a notepad and merely jotting down each spectator's card as it is revealed to the performer in the miscalling process, saving the revelations and the S3 prediction to the end. With only five spectators it is possible to remember each card (as its stack number) without recording it, but there is already enough to remember on one's feet, so I think I would like to write them down. I have seen mentalists work very thoughtfully with a clipboard or notebook and and doesn't seem in the least amiss.

Looking forward to further discussion of this wonderful effect.

Les
JanForster
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As I have written somewhere else long time ago one of my approaches was to switch the entire deck AFTER the mental choices have been done and the deck has been shuffled by a spectator. It happens in a dead moment, the deck gets cased and put away... It is more like an afterthought in which order I will try to read their minds which brings back the deck, now switched. This deck is stacked in the order I will call the cards Smile. There are some advantages, as you have not to execute any miscalls and spectator(s) near by can actually see or observe what are you claiming to do... Jan
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Waterloophai
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Quote:
On Jan 20, 2015, JanForster wrote:
As I have written somewhere else long time ago one of my approaches was to switch the entire deck AFTER the mental choices have been done and the deck has been shuffled by a spectator. It happens in a dead moment, the deck gets cased and put away... It is more like an afterthought in which order I will try to read their minds which brings back the deck, now switched. This deck is stacked in the order I will call the cards Smile. There are some advantages, as you have not to execute any miscalls and spectator(s) near by can actually see or observe what are you claiming to do... Jan

1) A deck switch is indeed the best (and safest!) solution to avoid mistakes. The ideal is when you have an accomplice-magician (who has not to know a MD). You are turned with your back to the audience. Your accomplice distributes the cards and afterwards he reassembles them and shuffles the cards. When that is done, you turn around and tell what you are going to do. At that moment all the attention is at you and your accomplish has all the time to switch the decks. When you ask him the deck, he comes to you and gives you "the deck". (you can exercise this at a your magicians club meeting)

2) It is the only memdeck-trick where I use a crip sheet in the form of a playing card (which is in the deck second from the bottom) when I have to do the trick without an accomplice. Although I know my MD VERY well and have even not to think, it is very difficult for me to look at different cards and name at the same time the order of my MD. It is a sort of multiple tasking and men are not good at it in general.(at least I am not)
When I call the cards, the crip sheet-card is brought to the bottom and the faces of the cards are of course towards me. I hold the deck towards me in a very little fan and the crip card is held as in the Hofzinser card force. So it looks like I take every time the first card, but in reality the crip sheet is still behind it, but more to the left so they cannot see that.
Claudio
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The versions that rely on knowing your stack cold are probably the best, but if you wish to present this effect with little or no knowledge of a stack, you have not many options. The deck switch is an excellent idea and it is possible to do it during a preceding effect, especially designed to allow for a DS, or during a low attention moment at the end of the preceding effect. What follows is perfectly adapted to a short version of the effect: 5 spectators with 5 cards each.

For this to make sense (ie a DS during the previous effect), there is some trade off: I use a method I first read in Greater Magic which gave an updated version of Hoffmann's "MUTUS NOMEN …” trick. In a nutshell your deck is made up of 2 banks of duplicates. Each bank contains the 25 top cards of your favourite stack, each in the relevant order to do the effect.

You hand out 5 cards to 5 spectators (first bank) and once the cards have been collected and shuffled you put them face up on top the face-down cards you’ve kept in hand. Later on, under some misdirection, just drop your left hand, or table the deck if it's possible, reversing the whole deck so that you can start calling cards from the second bank when you get to it. There are some fine points to this reversal, such as ensuring that the colours of each top face-up card of both sets match and that they are both either number or court cards. But it’s not really necessary if you use time misdirection.
lcwright1964
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I like the crib card idea very much. Phoenix decks include, in lieu of an advertising card, a so-called "Poker Bingo" card that presents the Aronson stack on one side and Tamariz stack on the other in a grid format that is very well suited to calling out the stack in groups of ten or subgroups thereof. One can use the side one wants to make a split card with any back one wants, or just glue it to another for a double thickness card (safe enough since a spectator won't be handling it). I do agree that some aide-memoire is good to avoid mistakes in this trick, since it really is a challenge in the heat of battle to look at one thing and call out the name of another. Indeed there are some psychological tests that flash the name of colour, yet the font of the word is in a different colour--e.g., the word BLUE is show in red letters. The task is to name the colour of the letters, and to be quick about. It is harder than it looks.

I also like the split deck idea, and will consider that. The top 25 cards are in Histed Heisted order--1, 11, 21, 31, 41, through to 25, 35, 45. The second half is in modified stack order--1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, through to 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, for simplicity with 1 at the FACE. After collecting the 25 cards in play from the audience and having a spectator shuffle I would add them to the deck and false shuffle and cut to preserve the bottom stack--lots of straightforward ways to do this, yet my favourite would be a Truffle shuffle since I will be shortly be looking at the faces so I can openly cut the deck back into proper order. I would read the cards before me in the bunches of five, but expand each run through to seven or more by calling out from memory cards that I know are not in the modified stack (the ones with stack numbers ending in 6, 7, 8, 9, 0). This DOES risk miscalling errors if one is not careful, but the advantage is that one only does it a few times, and lookie-loo spectators will notice that (usually) the magician is calling the actual name of the card he is looking at and it looks legit. A big disadvantage to all this is that one is left with a gaffed deck rather than a shuffled regular one.

I am really glad this discussion was reopened. I love this classic effect and I can't wait until I assemble enough willing victims to try it out. Great to learn that there are so many variants in approach with which to experiment.
Claudio
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Your setup will certainly work, and is faithful to the Aronson one, but I only use the 25 top cards of the stack. I find easier and more convenient, especially when I do the DS: I switch out only half a deck during a trick where I still have half a stack. But the version I perform is nearer to the “The Impostress Princess” setup wise (same maths principle though).

Shuffling the cards is also an option, and I think that’s the method which is described in Greater Magic. However when I used it, a few times some savvy spectators commented, after the effect, that it was remarkable that all the selections were among the bottom 25, when they should have been rather distributed throughout the whole deck. Miscalling a few, as you mention, should dispel any suspicion.

As for leaving you with a gaffed deck, you’re right it’s an issue. In my case it was the last effect of a routine, so it was not. Had I been doing more effects, I would have had to switch only half a deck, so it would not have been too difficult to engineer it. For example, at the end of the trick, once S3’s card has been predicted, get back the envelope and put it back in the pocket with your left hand still holding its remaining half and switch back in the half you’d switched out at the beginning of the trick.

Finally, I don’t perform this trick anymore as I am rarely in a position to do so, but if I were, I would probably use a Phoenix thin deck. Setup could be 26 regular cards on top and 52 thin cards at the bottom. The deck thickness would still look right. The specs would not handle the thin cards, so that’s fine. And you could add the specs cards back to the top and start calling cards in batches of ten from the bottom without further ado. It would be a simple matter to switch in/out the thin cards.
JanForster
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Just as a little reminder, I've written about it before: I prefer to distribute all cards what leads to some minor fishing... e. g. spectator # 1 gets # 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, 26 ... up to 51. I think you get the idea. Jan
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lcwright1964
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Quote:
On Jan 21, 2015, JanForster wrote:
Just as a little reminder, I've written about it before: I prefer to distribute all cards what leads to some minor fishing... e. g. spectator # 1 gets # 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, 26 ... up to 51. I think you get the idea. Jan


Excellent. Yes, I get the idea. Do you retain the Spectator 3 (or whoever) prediction kicker from Simon's original? If so, you would need a ten-out index instead of just five. I think I would do this with five double envelopes--each holding pairs 3/8, 13/18, 23/28, 33/38, and 43/48. This way, you could bring out the correct envelope once you know what "decade" holds Spec 3's selection, then open the relevant end and dump out the prediction once he names his card.

Your version, where each spectator gets 10 or 11 cards rather than just five, can be a lot more powerful as the bigger packet each spec holds implies greater choice and he only THINKS of a card as opposed to physically selecting one. On the other hand fishing on the fly means knowing the stack cold and thinking on one's feet, especially in those situations (41/46/51 and 42/47/52) where one is dealing with three possibilities rather than the usual two.
bunkyhenry
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"the bigger packet each spec holds implies greater choice and he only THINKS of a card as opposed to physically selecting one."

In Histed I do not know a version where the card is physically selected.
lcwright1964
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Quote:
On Jan 21, 2015, bunkyhenry wrote:
"the bigger packet each spec holds implies greater choice and he only THINKS of a card as opposed to physically selecting one."

In Histed I do not know a version where the card is physically selected.


Of course. But if she thinks of a card out of a selection of 10 or 11 vs. 5 then that is all the more impossible Smile
JanForster
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Yes, I use 10 outs Smile , 10 pay envelops, using five pockets, in each pocket two. No big deal compared to 5, honestly. Jan
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bunkyhenry
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Been playing around with "Way Out" By Oberon
as the outs
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