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General_Magician
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Some of the past historical English soldiers that served in Afghanistan in the past spoke perfect and fluent Pashto and some of the Afghans have their children named after some of these past English soldiers/officers. These soldiers/officers were from England's historical interventions in Afghanistan in the past and not the current day conflict in Afghanistan. I read about one English officer who was loved by the Afghans even though he was a Christian because he was very brave, spoke their language fluently, knew their culture and customs. He was killed conducting a raid on behalf of England's interests. Can't remember which English war this was that this particular soldier/officer served in on behalf of England.

Personally, I have a high regard for the British military. Their light infantry such as the Royal Marines are very well trained (they have to be considering their lack of resources in comparison to the US when it comes to their military). Their special forces such as the SAS are one of the best if not the best in the world and they have done very well with counter-insurgency operations in the past and I think one reason why the English do a much better job at counter-insurgency could be the organizational structure of their military given that they had a huge empire in the past that had to administer various different colonies whereas on the other hand, our military is very well suited for a conventional conflict which we fight very well. Historically, we have not had to administer colonies like England has had to do given their empire.
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tommy
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I don't have any respect for people who want to go and kill for a living personally. The military have always been mercenaries. In the old days the kings used hire mercenaries who were the scum the earth. They would scavenge around loot and rape wherever they went. The king thought, well why not have a standing army and get the people pay by tax instead of him putting his hand in his own pocket every time he wanted to go to war. So you see that is what we have now. We have to pay for these mercenaries now even in peace time. Just one bunch of mercenaries against another in reality. I think we should nuke the lot of them.
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Starting with Devil Island?
AllAboutMagic
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Can you please explain the rationale of saying one can't be against nukes in Afghanistan if they were for the nukes in Japan? The decision to nuke The Empire of Japan was not out of revenge for Pearl Harbor, it was because it was estimated that over 100,000 more American lives would have been lost and up to 1,000,000 Japanese lives lost if we invaded the main land to win the war. While the attacks on 9-11 were an atrocity, I don't think killing hundreds of thousands of Afghan civilians with a nuke is remotely justified, merely becuase their government supported the terrorists.
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On Jul 9, 2014, AllAboutMagic wrote:
Can you please explain the rationale of saying one can't be against nukes in Afghanistan if they were for the nukes in Japan? The decision to nuke The Empire of Japan was not out of revenge for Pearl Harbor, it was because it was estimated that over 100,000 more American lives would have been lost and up to 1,000,000 Japanese lives lost if we invaded the main land to win the war. While the attacks on 9-11 were an atrocity, I don't think killing hundreds of thousands of Afghan civilians with a nuke is remotely justified, merely becuase their government supported the terrorists.



I knew the decision was to save American lives, but I am not so sure if the decision to drop the atomic bombs were to save Japanese lives. The atomic bombs took quite a few Japanese lives and at the time we dropped the bomb on Japan, we had no idea if they would have surrendered or not. So, it seems our motivation to drop the bomb was more about saving American lives and not so much about saving Japanese lives. At the time we did not have a crystal ball to predict the future on how Japan might respond. We certainly knew that they would fight to the last man quite literally and few were ever captured alive on other battlefields. In several cases, Japanese women committed suicide rather than surrender (Okinawa, Japan after the Marines fought a bloody battle to take it).

I think it's questionable to say we dropped the atomic bombs to save Japanese lives because we simply didn't know if they would have surrendered even with the bomb being dropped. Heck from the mentality our soldiers saw of the Japanese before that, even with the bomb being dropped they might have simply opted to be exterminated by a hail of A-bombs rather than submit to "dishonorable surrender" as the Japanese called it. It was considered a huge disgrace in Japan to surrender and the warrior code of the Japanese soldier was to choose suicide rather than surrender and many did. Many of our soldiers were treated brutally by the Japanese because they did surrender and the Japanese viewed them as less than human because our soldiers submitted to "dishonorable surrender" rather than fighting to the last man like the they (the Japanese) did. That was the Japanese mentality. Not everybody in the world has our values AllAboutMagic or our mentality and I have been to different parts of the world while serving deployments with the National Guard and not everybody thinks like we do.

The war in the Pacific at the time was spiraling out of control and quite frankly, was turning into a war of extermination before the bomb was dropped on Japan. Very few Japanese prisoners were taken alive as POWs. It was brutal on the Pacific front. When the dogs of war are unleashed it's very easy for those dogs to spiral out of control.
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mastermindreader
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You didn't answer her question, which was, "Can you please explain the rationale of saying one can't be against nukes in Afghanistan if they were for the nukes in Japan?"
General_Magician
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On Jul 9, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
You didn't answer her question, which was, "Can you please explain the rationale of saying one can't be against nukes in Afghanistan if they were for the nukes in Japan?"


What are you guys trying to do, interrogate me? Are you an interrogator or something? I am not sure I agree with her assumption we dropped the bomb to save BOTH American and Japanese lives, rather, I think our motivation was first and foremost to save our own American lives and that was the real factor behind the decision to drop the bomb. Me personally, my reference to the use of nukes was more about suffering another 9/11 style terrorist attack that came from Iraq given that this new terrorist organization which is worse the Al-queda has taken hold in Iraq and could use Iraq as a safe haven to attack us in the US. This situation, like the war in the Pacific can spiral out of control too honestly speaking. It's like I said, when the dogs of war released, anything can happen and it can also spiral out of control. A terrorist attack can most certainly unleash the dogs of war, much like the few Israeli teenagers murdered by the Hamas terrorist group has sparked the current rounds of bombings between Israel and Hamas. All it takes is just one little spark to light the fuse.

Speaking of answering questions Bob, since you brought it up, you never answered my question. What solutions do you have? You didn't answer that question either. Nobody seems to have an alternative solution but plenty of criticism. If you are going to criticize then you better have alternative solutions to offer as well. Otherwise you don't have any business criticizing anybody because you don't have any solutions to offer. If you are going to ask me to answer questions Bob, then you better answer questions that are asked of you before you come at me complaining about me not answering questions. You have no moral authority Bob.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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mastermindreader
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Yes, I specifically answered your question. I said that we should have completely focused on Afghanistan, got bin Laden and then got out. And that we should never have invaded Iraq. I guess you didn't read that.

And you DID say that if we were for nuking Japan we should also favor nuking Afghanistan. You were simply asked what your basis for this was- a perfectly reasonable question since one seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with the other.

And what's with the moral authority non sequitor? Are you upset about something? I thought we were just having a conversation.
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Yes, I specifically answered your question. I said that we should have completely focused on Afghanistan, got bin Laden and then got out. And that we should never have invaded Iraq. I guess you didn't read that.


I did read that, just that I didn't remember it, but now I remember it since you brought it up. I agree with your statement except I think we should have just sent in a few special forces guys to take out Bin Laden rather than occupying the whole rock and spending all that money and lives doing it. I think our special forces guys are pretty good at gathering intel from the local population to find specific terrorist targets like OBL. My memory is not the best in the world. My basis for statement in regards to nuking Afghanistan was merely "well heck, we nuked Japan for Pearl Harbor and 9/11 was worse then Pearl Harbor" But nukes didn't really come to mind for me until ISIS started taking over Iraq and then it seemed like we might have to send our troops back over there again. I just assume nuke'em and get it over with rather than expending more American lives having to send our troops back over there again if for some reason ISIS, which is worse than Al-queda, were to launch a terrorist attack here on our home soil from Iraq.

Quote:
And what's with the moral authority non sequitor? Are you upset about something? I thought we were just having a conversation.


I did read where you answered my question, I just forgot that you answered it. Sometimes I can be forgetful. So I felt like you were demanding me to answer questions when I couldn't remember you answering my questions unless you explicitly told me your answer for the question, THEN I was able to remember it. Sometimes I think I have the mind of an old person coming down with Alzheimer or something to that effect. I felt like I was being interrogated or something but I am not upset. I regard this as simply a conversation but I don't like to be the one answering all the questions either. I disagree with AllAboutMagic's statement that nuking Japan was about saving BOTH American and Japanese lives, rather, I think we nuked Japan to save the lives of our own soldiers and we weren't worried too much about saving Japanese lives when we did it.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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Dannydoyle
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You can go back and read the thread.
Danny Doyle
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AllAboutMagic
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LOL......Ramble on and on and on much?
imgic
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This thread hurts my head on so many levels...
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AllAboutMagic
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I will argue that GM is wrong about te reasons why we bombed based on a documentary I watched on Truman. If not a reason it was used as one of the justifications. I could elaborate but I don't feel the need to ramble on and repeat myself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in the same post. Smile
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Yes, Truman believed that the bomb saved Japanese lives as well. But there was a lot more to it than that. Many believe that the dropping of the bombs was a message to the Soviets, who had just entered the war against Japan, and that the bombs that ended WWII also marked the beginning of the Cold War.

http://www.ushistory.org/us/51g.asp
tommy
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America was simply feeling unhappy or fed up. Nuking Japan pulled it out of its depression and it was it was happy and while Lenin read a book on Marx a quartet practised in the park.
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You're a weird guy tommy. Smile
General_Magician
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Quote:
On Jul 9, 2014, AllAboutMagic wrote:
I will argue that GM is wrong about te reasons why we bombed based on a documentary I watched on Truman. If not a reason it was used as one of the justifications. I could elaborate but I don't feel the need to ramble on and repeat myself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in the same post. Smile



All you want to do, is just oppose everything I have to say. It was a war back then, we were killing the enemy at the time. We didn't care much for their feelings nor were we sensitive to them. We nuked them to save the lives of our boys. The Japanese back then were not the Japanese, rather, we referred to them with more derogatory terms. It was a war and we were exercising extreme prejudice because that's the reality of war. You have to give up some of your morality. We were not benevolent enlightened conquerors of the Japanese trying to save as many lives of theirs as we could because the realities of the time did not permit it. We were doing what we had to do to win while minimizing our own losses. Truman might have used saving Japanese lives as a justification but I doubt it was the real reason. Truman was a politician and cannot afford to always call a spade a spade. He has to dress up the worst things and try to package it and make it look nice. So providing the justification of "saving Japanese lives" is the way to do it, the nice diplomatic language.
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AllAboutMagic
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I wonder why we even entertain your posts with replies. I made a point based on what I saw on a Truman biography.....YOU.....had to argue. Your argument is based on your personal feelings. (quote: "but I doubt it was the real reason" :end quote) You also started this argument to avoid the actual question. I asked you if someone was ok with us nuking Japan back in WWII then why would they have to be ok with nuking Afghanistan like you stated. You took a trivial fragment from a sentence in my post and ran wild with it. Regardless of the actual intentions for dropping the bomb (save Americans, save Japanese, scare Russians) why do YOU, General Magician, feel that nuking Afghanistan would be the same as nuking Japan?

Now, I double dog dare you to answer the question without parsing some piece of a sentence and going off on a topic that clearly avoids the question.
General_Magician
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On Jul 9, 2014, AllAboutMagic wrote:
I wonder why we even entertain your posts with replies. I made a point based on what I saw on a Truman biography.....YOU.....had to argue. Your argument is based on your personal feelings. (quote: "but I doubt it was the real reason" :end quote) You also started this argument to avoid the actual question. I asked you if someone was ok with us nuking Japan back in WWII then why would they have to be ok with nuking Afghanistan like you stated. You took a trivial fragment from a sentence in my post and ran wild with it. Regardless of the actual intentions for dropping the bomb (save Americans, save Japanese, scare Russians) why do YOU, General Magician, feel that nuking Afghanistan would be the same as nuking Japan?

Now, I double dog dare you to answer the question without parsing some piece of a sentence and going off on a topic that clearly avoids the question.


I am not the one who wants to argue. YOU are the one who wants to argue. The main reason I stated that if YOU support nuking Japan you can't oppose nuking Afghanistan because then if you did then you have inconsistent views. Now YOU claim that Truman dropped the bomb to save BOTH Japanese and American lives. I dispute your claim. We dropped the bomb to primarily save the lives of American service members. Now, a politician might try to dress it up and say, we did it to save BOTH American and Japanese lives, but that most likely wasn't the case. At the time, we were simply trying to win the war and had no way of knowing if the Japanese would surrender and all evidence pointed that they would not surrender and would fight quite literally to the last man. We were simply trying to win the war while saving the lives of our own people. We certainly would have dropped as many atomic bombs as we possibly could to achieve a Japanese surrender (or we would have simply destroyed the entire country in a hail of A-bombs and not got a surrender at all and their might not have been anything left of Japan, would you have supported that if you lived in that time?)

It's easy to support the nuking of Japan now, because we have the benefit of hindsight and didn't live through those times. We know it worked, because we can read it in the history books and know that it worked and just by chance it also happened to have saved Japanese lives as well as American lives. But at the time, Truman did not know if that would happen. He just didn't have a crystal ball to predict the future. He was not a grade A fortune teller. So it's easy for those who support the nuking of Japan but oppose the nuking of Afghanistan to actually support the nuking of Japan because they didn't have to live in those times and they have the history books to read and see that it just so happened to have saved BOTH Japanese and American lives by nuking Japan. So it's easy for them to support it because they didn't have to live through those times and make those tough decisions. But during those times, Truman had no idea if the Japanese would have surrendered. The Japanese might have opted to simply be completely destroyed by a hail of A-bombs and that would have been fine by Truman because no American boys would have had to die in the process. He probably would have just sent in our boys to occupy a nuclear wasteland after it was all said and done if the Japanese refused to surrender.


And so here we were with 9/11 which was worse than Peal Harbor. An attack happened on our homeland much like Pearl Harbor and you have OBL and his minions in Afghanistan and the Taliban refusing to give them up. Whose lives do you value more AllAboutMagic? You have to choose one or the other. American or Afghan lives? Whose lives is the US government responsible for? American? Or Afghan? Something tells me the world wouldn't have blamed us much if we did nuke Afghanistan in the aftermath of 9/11. There probably would have been a few countries that would have done the same thing if they were in our shoes at the time.
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imgic
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And the pain behind the eyes worsen...
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
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