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Engali Elite user 435 Posts 
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As others have mentioned, it comes down to a matter of integrity. It hurts the magic community in at least 3 ways:
1) It increases the chances that spectator will understand how effects are done, ruining the mystery of magic 2) It robs the inventors of money they might have otherwise gotten. More importantly, given the value system of Magic, it robs them of the CREDIT that they deserve for putting in hundreds of hours into an art that they love and wanted to contribute back to. I think realistically that very few inventors make any substantial amount of money. Like in science, the "gold coin" of the realm is recognition for having expanded the field and for making a big impact by contributing to it. Ultimately, this discourages people from sharing their work (e.g., Ricky Jay) and makes the art as a whole less rich down the line. Just because the consequences aren't immediately apparent doesn't mean they are not set into motion. 3) The motivation behind what they're doing is likely not respect and love for the art. It's fame. I know this to be true of Jarek 120 because he says as much in an hour long vid chronicling his journey from magic geek to YouTube semi-star status. He says that Magic is his "hook", but his real love is pro wrestling and he's about using Magic to get himself noticed and famous so he can parlay that into a wrestling career. Fine, do what you want. But the issue is that someone who is extrinsically motivated in Magic like that will not be particularly good compared to the people who love the art. Frankly, I am much better than he is sleight wise and I still don't feel qualified to teach anything. His push off DL is mediocre at best--and I'm not being "jelly" or whatever you kids want to say nowadays. The result is that we have a bunch of people learning what they *think* is good instruction on sleights (because it's better *relative to most of what's on YouTube*) from people who *think* they know how to teach it well (which they don't, but they really don't care anyway) and this leads to a worse performance overall that makes Magic look bad and degrades the art. So basically, it boils down to integrity and character and how you relate to an art. Now don't get me wrong, I am not on some moral high horse here--not gonna pretend like I have never watched these people's vids. I have out of curiosity. However, I never perform or even use a sleight or trick without having bought a sanctioned source on it so I a) know who actually came up with it, b) know for sure that I am getting good instruction on how it should be done and what it should look like, and c) know that the inventor is getting some sort of kickback, direct or indirect. |
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frankvomit Elite user 485 Posts
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On Jul 15, 2014, Jacob Sparks wrote: just to make things clear jarek 120, 52kards, and how to desturb reality are all the same person, even cloyde. he is really good at what he does, and he's not teaching for exposure but more just to teach people that really want to learn. another youtube source that teaches well is mismag822 also known as thecardtrickteacher. |
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1tepa1 Inner circle 1282 Posts
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On Aug 12, 2014, frankvomit wrote: Are you seriously saying that mismag teaches well? |
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Asad.jpeg "View Profile"){kind=avatar} New user San Jose, California 13 Posts
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I am the founder of 52Kards and this discussion seems to be a bit one sided so I'll add my two cents. I'm not surprised that the Magic Café as a whole seems to be against magic on Youtube. Most of the active members have been studying magic for quite some time and have much less to benefit from these Youtube tutorials; however you wouldn't believe the number of messages I receive on a daily basis from magicians all over the world expressing their thanks and support for the content I and other Youtube teachers put out there. There is a large demographic of people who are passionate about learning magic, but for whatever reason (lack of money, parental support, magic shops, etc) are being held back. Youtube is emerging as the greatest learning resource available (for all subjects, not just magic) and allows anyone who has the dedication to learn this craft.
As far as the ethics of teaching on Youtube goes; I absolutely agree that it should be done with care. I always credit the source of my content in the description box, and the vast majority of the things I teach are what I would consider classic material which has already been taught in multiple other sources. YouTube is here to stay and it will only become a stronger and strong resource for learning magic as time moves forward. Many people seem to be threatened by this fact because they fear that their audiences will stumble upon these teachings and potentially disrupt future performances, but I don't think this is a valid argument. YouTube is a very big place and you aren't going to find these videos unless you know what to search for. Check out this excellent video Brian Brushwood from Scam School uploaded discussing the ethics of teaching magic on YouTube: http://youtu.be/fwQJXgQaHiM Regards Asad |
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Lee Stan New user 56 Posts
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On Aug 13, 2014, Asad wrote: You are clearly talking about kids. I don't see why they shouldn't wait until they are older if they can't afford to buy magic now. |
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Asad New user San Jose, California 13 Posts
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On Aug 13, 2014, Lee Stan wrote: It's not just kids (18-24 is a big age demographic for my audience), but why should they have to pay to learn? I don't see this mind set in any field other than magic. Of course if a creator releases a product then you should have to pay for it; but we're talking about classic effects and common sleight of hand technique here. |
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LewisF New user 14 Posts
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Youtube is a fantastic place! The quality of the video's are very important obviously. I like 52kards and Jarek 1:20 in that area. There are a couple of things to keep in mind with youtube magicians:
1. Material + Credit. Is the creator missing money from this? If you teach a classic pass then nobody is getting burned. If you teach chaptrick or one of the others mentioned (can't say I know them) then it's a bad thing. If the copyright has expired or if it's generally known then make sure you give credit. 2. Exposure. The question is: is this exposure? Most youtube video's are not the easiest to find. You need a desire to learn magic, not a trick mind you, but any piece of magic. In that case youtube becomes a resource and it isn't exposure (laymen wanting to know how stuff is done). 3. Learning quality. Getting all your material from youtube will make you a ****ty magician. We've established that fact. If you just want a quick tip on a move then great! Go ahead and use it. Maybe that DVD makes a quick remark on a Hermann pass. What was a hermann pass again? How do you do it? Youtube it! Finally the good part: youtube magic is a gateway. Because it's free people slightly interested will do it. If you want to dabble with magic you now can! We need free tricks to pull people into the world of magic. When they find out that there is more to learn and discover from DVD's and books they will go out and buy it. Even if they decide to illegally download material then at the worst the world will have one extra magician. |
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Brogan_C New user 60 Posts
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One of my friends learns primarily from these two channels as he doesn't have the money to buy a DVD or book. Anything he learns he practices over and over, and now has great sleight of hand. He does the strike double very consistently and his elmsley count is very deceptive. Many tricks he does come directly off of these channels and always get great reactions. For someone without money, or just wanting to see if magic is for them, YouTube is a great starting point.
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Engali Elite user 435 Posts
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On Aug 13, 2014, Asad wrote: The issue is that you are not simply teaching classic material. You are teaching work that people who are alive and well should be compensated for one way or another. Some off you site: Spring Set by John Cornelius Top Shot by Lennart Green Simple Switch and Instant Replay by Paul Harris Shuffling Lesson by Chad Long ShapeShifter Change by Marc DeSouza Hot Shot Cut by Daryl Ring Thing by Garrett Thomas These are signature moves/effects by current greats who have made a name for themselves off of this stuff--arguably stuff that they are most famous for. These aren't "classics" that are somehow public domain. You are directly benefiting from teaching the work of other people without their permission and that is what is unethical. You want to justify it by citing all the praise you get. I am not surprised that you receive praise for giving away other people's work for free--why wouldn't the recipients be grateful? Just a simple, yes-or-no question: do you or have you received any compensation, monetary or otherwise, through your YouTube channel teaching magic or your website promoting it? |
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 821 Posts
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What is with the whole they don't have money issue? I mean you can pick up Royal Road to Card Magic for less then $10 and Mark Wilson's Complete Course on Magic can be found on amazon for $4 which includes shipping. People that say they don't have the money just don't want to save up for the material.
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HudsonView New user 98 Posts
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"You are directly benefiting from teaching the work of other people without their permission and that is what is unethical."
That is a pretty bold statement. I don't think I own a magic book or dvd that does not use moves and plots invented by other people, many times with out attribution, mostly without permission. How many signature moves does Daryl teach on his encycopedia of card magic? How many creators of published effects based on the Elmsley Count actually got Elmsley's permission first? There is only one way to keep something secret: don't publish it, don't tell anyone how it was done, take it to your grave. Ricky Jay's attitude should be the norm, not the strange aberation that most people consider it. |
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Engali Elite user 435 Posts
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Isn't standard practice to get permission to include moves in a book or DVD?
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ssibal Veteran user 352 Posts
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There is no legitimate reason why anyone in your 18-24 demographic who somehow can afford internet access and a deck of cards (or did they steal those?) cannot afford to buy a book, DVD, or online download. And last time I checked the publishers of those materials held the copyrights so unless they explicitly gave you permission to reproduce it on YouTube you should not be doing so.
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Asad New user San Jose, California 13 Posts
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On Aug 13, 2014, Engali wrote: Yes, these are signature moves which are quite popular and have already been taught in many other sources, which is why I have no issue with teaching them on my channel. And yes, I do get compensated for my work. |
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Engali Elite user 435 Posts
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Why do you feel like you should be compensated for your work?
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Asad New user San Jose, California 13 Posts
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On Aug 13, 2014, ssibal wrote: Not having to pay to learn is just one reason why students turn to YouTube. Other advantages include... 1.) Convenience/Accessibility. Being able to do a quick search for the material you are looking; instead of finding a book or DVD resource and then rummaging through it to find what you want. 2.) Communication. Youtube's commenting system allows students to directly ask the video creator questions in case they need any clarification. 3.) Community. Youtube is also a social network and allows magic students to interact with each other. |
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Kabbalah Inner circle 1621 Posts
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Imagine rummaging through a book. Oh, the horror!
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green "The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them." ~ John Northern Hilliard |
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Asad New user San Jose, California 13 Posts
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On Aug 13, 2014, Engali wrote: Because I provide value. I have spent over a decade studying and practicing magic and now use modern technologies to teach other magicians the best material that I have found in my research. In exchange for my knowledge and time spent producing content, I should be compensated. |
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inigmntoya Inner circle DC area native, now in Atlanta 2351 Posts
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I know that man. Back when I was in the revenge business.
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On Aug 13, 2014, Kabbalah wrote: |
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inigmntoya Inner circle DC area native, now in Atlanta 2351 Posts
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On Aug 13, 2014, Asad wrote: Correction 1: .... to teach other magicians the best material that I have found in my research BUT DO NOT OWN THE RIGHTS TO GIVE AWAY. Correction 2: In exchange for OTHER PEOPLE'S KNOWLEDGE and time spent COPYING THEIR content, I should be compensated. Hmmm... doesn't sound so justifiable anymore. |
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Posted: Aug 12, 2014 03:16 pm 
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