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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » Double Cross by Mark Southworth (From Magic Smith) (118 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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pegasus
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You cannot sit on an idea indefinitely and then moan when someone else takes the initiative and releases an effect to the magic community. I'm glad I supported Chris. He's a nice fella and I don't appreciate him being slagged off on here when he's not around to defend himself. Why not visit him face to face and tell him what you think??
Jared
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I am disappointed to learn about the storied background regarding this product. I would venture to guess that "most" of us make every effort to support the original creator's. However, as a consumer of magic products, we do not always know the true origins of creative discoveries. My past dealings with Chris Smith have always been good (speaking ONLY as a customer) dating back to when he owned his online magic shop. I was not aware about any wrong doings concerning him allegedly stealing intellectual proprietary rights.

I have been a fiercely loyal customer of everything Gregory Wilson has put into the market (I systematically 'add to cart' with every new release),and I've been gaining the same level of confidence with Gary Jones's excellent products. Both creator's have made enormous contributions to the art.

As a consumer, I try to do the right thing. But sometimes we learn about these disputes after purchasing the said product in question. I hope that the industry eventually implements a formal system for creators to register product ideas for limited protection over a set period of years. Obviously, filing for patents with the government makes no sense due to the high costs involved and the limited anticipated turnover. Until then, these squabbles will continue to surface on the forums because apparently some people do not play nice.
CarlMcCoy
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Quote:
On Aug 25, 2015, pegasus wrote:
You cannot sit on an idea indefinitely and then moan when someone else takes the initiative and releases an effect to the magic community. I'm glad I supported Chris. He's a nice fella and I don't appreciate him being slagged off on here when he's not around to defend himself. Why not visit him face to face and tell him what you think??



But surely there is a massive difference between sitting on an idea and someone else coming up with the same idea and releasing it...

and

Coming up with an idea, sharing it with someone, sitting on it for whatever reason and then they decide to release it themselves?

Don't know Chris, but am a big fan of Gregory Wilson and Gary Jones and they've always seemed like stand up guys to me.
videoman
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Al I know is that I don't believe that Gregory Wilson or Gary Jones are whiners or complainers. They're both very positive people who have each contributed so much to the magic community. We are truly fortunate to have performers/creators like them. I have never heard of either one them acting dishonestly or mud-slinging without cause.
So when they state their opinion about something I can't help but believe them.

I also think that if you come up with an idea you should be entitled to "sit" on that idea for as long as you wish without having to worry about someone else marketing it without your permission.
Gregory Wilson
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Back to Mr. Pegasus,

I apparently have too much time on my hands today, so here's my two cents worth on creative and marketing decorum . . .

Over the years, I've had numerous tricks that were independently conceived by others who had beaten me to the marketplace either because I procrastinated or tried to jealously guard them for too long. In the spirit and practice of competition, they are the victors -- fair and square! No BMW from me (bitch, moan, whine).

What becomes problematic and painful, however, is when someone in our loyal circle of trust becomes fully aware of a confidential idea/routine and puts it on the market WITHOUT permission. That's theft at worst and bad form at best.

Also, you say that visiting any particular offender in person should be the first course of action. Agreed. But when they refuse to acknowledge or own their sin after said encounter, I think it's entirely appropriate to go public to put them on notice for the next time.

Finally, what makes this so ethically confusing to some is that Chris is indeed a nice fellow; a person whom you feel compelled to support. But nice does not always make right. Nice does not automatically confer someone with faultless and faithful principles of propriety.

Evidently, in this case, Double Cross is perfectly titled as beauty is in the eye of the betrayer!
gjmagic
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Quote:
On Aug 25, 2015, pegasus wrote:
You cannot sit on an idea indefinitely and then moan when someone else takes the initiative and releases an effect to the magic community. I'm glad I supported Chris. He's a nice fella and I don't appreciate him being slagged off on here when he's not around to defend himself. Why not visit him face to face and tell him what you think??


I have to disagree with you on this. If you have an idea for an effect and you don't release it for some reason or another, and then someone else independently comes up with the same idea and does release it, then fair play to them. Now, if someone comes up with an effect and they tell someone else, and then that person releases the effect under their own name, no matter what the timescale is, this is theft!

This has happened to me on several occasions, I have had ideas and effects which I've come up with independiately only to find ithey have been done before. The thing is, you have to hold your hands up and accept the fact that we stand on the shoulders of giants.....Something you never do though is, to claim a stolen effect or move as your own!

And yes, I would have no problems to tell them face to face ;-)

Gary Jones.
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www.garyjonesmagic.com

gary@garyjonesmagic.com

DVDs/Effects; The Unknown - iCandy - More iCandy 1 & 2 - Dupes - 52 0n 1 Project - 74% Self Working - Flying Tonight - Pocket This - 6 Pack Coins - 6 Pack Cards - Thought Wave - Noted - Duality - Live Lecture Vol 1 - Pseudo Pickpocket - iContact - Shock Twist - Thought of Cards Across Plus - Touched - Colour Diffusion - Look No Hands Wayne Dobson - Automata - Box Pad - No Frills Lecture Notes 1 & 2 - The Ammo - Double Cross - Initial Here - Automata 2 - Black Market - Trick Soup - Automata 3 - Penguin Live Lecture - Upper Hand - Cartoon Capers - Life's a Beach Vol 1.
PendletonThe3rd
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Well, I know for sure that the "card spinning thing"(tm) that MagicSmith just posted on their site is totally legit. As is the "stretchy ring trick" (tm) they have on there too. So at least they have some original ideas...Smile

Kidding aside... I did buy Double Cross a while ago and didn't realize all this was going on. Typically, I am a fan of many of MagicSmith's products but this doesn't sound very cool at all.

Out of curiosity to both Greg and Gary, what, if anything would make things right again in this case? Crediting, etc? Or are things way too beyond that at this point?

Either way, sounds like something that Chris should address.
gjmagic
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Quote:
On Aug 25, 2015, PendletonThe3rd wrote:
Well, I know for sure that the "card spinning thing"(tm) that MagicSmith just posted on their site is totally legit. As is the "stretchy ring trick" (tm) they have on there too. So at least they have some original ideas...Smile

Kidding aside... I did buy Double Cross a while ago and didn't realize all this was going on. Typically, I am a fan of many of MagicSmith's products but this doesn't sound very cool at all.

Out of curiosity to both Greg and Gary, what, if anything would make things right again in this case? Crediting, etc? Or are things way too beyond that at this point?

Either way, sounds like something that Chris should address.


You can never go 'too far' and things can always be patched up, but the ball is clearly out of mine and Greg's court at this moment in time!

For me personally, life is too short for holding grudges etc, I would personally like to get this cleared up and move on. This is difficult though as I get spammed daily by magic dealers telling me how good "Mark Southworth's" effect is lol!

I don't know is the answer to this question, and I don't think the silence from Mark or Chris has really helped in the long run!

Move on is probably the best option, unless you can think of a better option? I never forget though!

Gary Jones
MIMC Gold Star

www.garyjonesmagic.com

gary@garyjonesmagic.com

DVDs/Effects; The Unknown - iCandy - More iCandy 1 & 2 - Dupes - 52 0n 1 Project - 74% Self Working - Flying Tonight - Pocket This - 6 Pack Coins - 6 Pack Cards - Thought Wave - Noted - Duality - Live Lecture Vol 1 - Pseudo Pickpocket - iContact - Shock Twist - Thought of Cards Across Plus - Touched - Colour Diffusion - Look No Hands Wayne Dobson - Automata - Box Pad - No Frills Lecture Notes 1 & 2 - The Ammo - Double Cross - Initial Here - Automata 2 - Black Market - Trick Soup - Automata 3 - Penguin Live Lecture - Upper Hand - Cartoon Capers - Life's a Beach Vol 1.
PendletonThe3rd
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Thanks for the insight Gary. Sorry to hear you (and Greg) got the short end on this one.

A shame that Chris isn't seeming to at least attempt to make things right. Maybe with enough pressure here that will change? You would think once called out there would be some sort of acknowledgment. And if not, you know what they say about karma....
mikenewman
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I bought this, also not knowing the background. This really sucks!!!

I did buy it second-hand on here actually...

So, I am sorry to Greg and Gary got shafted!! I too, have supported Greg in the past, great creator and amazing to watch and learn from.

@Gary: I have not purchased fom you, but in doing a quick search, Noted 2.0 looks AWESOME!!!! And the I.D. idea is cool! Added to my wishlist!

And you are very right, in that you have to just move on. Be the better person, as much as it sucks. And obviously you won't forget, ever.


Anyone want to buy my Double Cross? JK. But I am not wanting to use it now.... I have had issues anyways, so be it.

Moving on.....
Lord*Of*ILLUZION
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I have also purchased this without knowing the controversy behind it. I have supported Greg Wilson's products, most recently Unleashed, Exact Change, and Revolution, all phenomenal products. I really like some of the MagicSmith releases as well (Ignition comes to mind). There is one other effect that has been marketed long before Double Cross was available and that is Reed McClintock's signature "Stars and Hexes" which I have played around with in the past. The methods aren't entirely similar but the routine involves similar actions with a different way to accomplish a similar finale. I strongly believe that he should also be mentioned in the credits.
"Real Eyes, Realize, Real Lies"
vinsmagic
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I have dealt with Chris Smith for over 15 years hes is the most honest personS on the planet..

some people here on this POST ARE CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK
VINNY

PS PS THIS POST SHOULD TAKEN DOWN BECAUSE I IS NOT TRUE WHAT IS SAID ABOUT CHRIS
Come check out my magic.

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Gregory Wilson
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Vinny,

Since you're bringing up Chris's character about this particular trick, I'm going to have to call you to the logical carpet since you have ZERO evidence in this regard.

You say that he's the most honest person on the planet. That said, how could you possibly know what happens in someone else's court? How could you know anything outside of your own personal experience with Chris? How could you have the insight to know if he ripped me off or not?

You also say that you've known Chris for 15 years. Well, I've known him for 25 years and this has been his unfortunate pattern since we first put out The Number Two Pencil back in 1995 -- when he tried to sneakily sidestep me on that project as well. To put it generously, he's a VERY SHREWD business man! And just because you don't like to hear those dirty and damaging insights doesn't make it untrue. I've kept this quiet for almost two decades, but when someone defends him without a full command of the facts and without knowing the alternative view, it's hard to keep it to myself anymore.

With all due respect, Vinny, your conjecture and loyalty are admirable but not logical.

And, while we're at it, who is calling the kettle black, as you say? Declaration without substantiation is mere speculation.
vinsmagic
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Gregory I I know you know Chris longer than me I also know he bought the rights to this effect so to say he stole something is not true, I don'know your differences with Chris, but I know him to be a honorable person and if he said he bought the rights I believe him.....sorry I don't know your past history with Chris . as to the kettle and the black we all have our skeletons in the closet .........
I also know your backround.......and this HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR MAGIC ABILITY BECAUSE YOU ARE ONE OF THE BEST ON THE PLANET
So this thread should be closed
vinny
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http://www.vinnymarini.com
CarlMcCoy
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Maybe you should come right out and say what you want to say Vinny, rather than insinuate things.

This thread should definitely not be closed until you've explained what it is you believe and allowed Gregory Wilson to have his say.

All this mystery does nothing but give people the wrong impression.

Not really fair, wouldn't you agree?
vinsmagic
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CARL I defended my friend Chris because I know him as a friend .. I also know Gregory , and don't know about any beef the two of the have ....
I think it is a shame to say all this on a open forum . I think this should be handled privately.
.....
I haven't heard Chris come on here and defend him,self or say it was true what he is being accused of
this is all I'm saying and nothing more
I said my two cents an d now I bow out
vinny
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http://www.vinnymarini.com
CarlMcCoy
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Thanks for the reply Vinny. I agree with you that all this should probably be done in private. The problem is that it's all kind out in the open now. Some cats can't be put back in their bags after people have seen them scampering about.

Hope my post to you didn't cause offence.
Gregory Wilson
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Hope this doesn't sound too harsh, Vinny, but you've said your two cents worth like a drive-by shooter who recklessly sprays his bullets in a crowd and leaves a wake of damage and confusion that adds nothing to the argument of Chris' pattern of bad deeds.

This is why Carl advised, "maybe you should say what you want to say and not insinuate things" like "knowing my background" and "having skeletons in the closet" and "the pot calling the kettle black." Not sure what any of that means and how it contributes to the argument or settles the issue of Chris' magical malfeasance.
Xiqual
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Gregory Wilson,
Your reputation is impeccable. Your products always have a ton of value and you are a Master performer. I've never heard anything to the contrary.
James


Quote:
On Sep 19, 2015, Gregory Wilson wrote:
Hope this doesn't sound too harsh, Vinny, but you've said your two cents worth like a drive-by shooter who recklessly sprays his bullets in a crowd and leaves a wake of damage and confusion that adds nothing to the argument of Chris' pattern of bad deeds.

This is why Carl advised, "maybe you should say what you want to say and not insinuate things" like "knowing my background" and "having skeletons in the closet" and "the pot calling the kettle black." Not sure what any of that means and how it contributes to the argument or settles the issue of Chris' magical malfeasance.
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
Nikki78
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Is this product available at the moment anywhere?
Somehow I can't find it...

Cheers
Nikki
I'm no native speaker - please ignore the mistakes Smile
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