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LobowolfXXX
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And perjury charges, potentially.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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BTW, there are limitations on a defense attorney's defense of a client he knows to be guilty. For instance, if an attorney knows that his client committed the crime, but the accused's girlfriend is willing to alibi him, the attorney can't call the girlfriend to the stand for her to testify that he was with her on the night of the crime. He also can't call the defendant to the stand if he expects the defendant will say that he didn't do it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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They can not willingly and knowingly allow a witness to commit perjury which is a crime.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mastermindreader
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Aces-

There is no such standard of proof as "beyond a shadow of a doubt," although you keep using that phrase.
Salguod Nairb
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Every American citizen has the right to a trial regardless of how much a scumbag they may be. It's like the Larry Flint movie/case.
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mastermindreader
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It should be obvious that if you can convict on illegally obtained evidence, you would also be able to convict on PLANTED evidence, as there would be no need for the State to prove how the evidence was obtained.

Danny is right. It's amazing how some people would just throw away fundamental constitutional protections.

What will you do when you are charged with criminal possession of heroin that someone had planted in your pocket and that you didn't know was there and that the cops found when they entered your house without a search warrant and did an illegal pat down on you?

(If you think it's never happened, you're wrong.)

You might want to consider a good defense lawyer.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Aces-

There is no such standard of proof as "beyond a shadow of a doubt," although you keep using that phrase.

Bob:

Considering the actual legal standard, is there any codification of which doubts are reasonable and which aren't, or is that left to the judgment of each individual juror?
mastermindreader
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Of course there are still plenty of folks who think that if you get charged with a crime, you're probably guilty. Good thing the defense attorneys at the Innocence Project know better:


Quote:
DNA Exonerations Nationwide

There have been 317 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States.

• The first DNA exoneration took place in 1989. Exonerations have been won in 38 states; since 2000, there have been 250 exonerations.

• 18 of the 317 people exonerated through DNA served time on death row. Another 16 were charged with capital crimes but not sentenced to death.

• The average length of time served by exonerees is 13.5 years. The total number of years served is approximately 4,249.

• The average age of exonerees at the time of their wrongful convictions was 27.

Races of the 317 exonerees:

199 African Americans
94 Caucasians
22 Latinos
2 Asian American

• The true suspects and/or perpetrators have been identified in 154 of the DNA exoneration cases.

• Since 1989, there have been tens of thousands of cases where prime suspects were identified and pursued—until DNA testing (prior to conviction) proved that they were wrongly accused.

• In more than 25 percent of cases in a National Institute of Justice study, suspects were excluded once DNA testing was conducted during the criminal investigation (the study, conducted in 1995, included 10,060 cases where testing was performed by FBI labs).

• 65 percent of the people exonerated through DNA testing have been financially compensated. 29 states, the federal government, and the District of Columbia have passed laws to compensate people who were wrongfully incarcerated. Awards under these statutes vary from state to state.

• An Innocence Project review of our closed cases from 2004 - 2010 revealed that 22 percent of cases were closed because of lost or destroyed evidence.

• The Innocence Project was involved in 173 of the 317 DNA exonerations. Others were helped by Innocence Network organizations, private attorneys and by pro se defendants in a few instances.

• 30 of the DNA exonerees pled guilty to crimes they did not commit.

Leading Causes of Wrongful Convictions

These DNA exoneration cases have provided irrefutable proof that wrongful convictions are not isolated or rare events, but arise from systemic defects that can be precisely identified and addressed. For more than 15 years, the Innocence Project has worked to pinpoint these trends. Many wrongful convictions overturned with DNA testing involve multiple causes.

Eyewitness Misidentification Testimony was a factor in 73 percent percent of post-conviction DNA exoneration cases in the U.S., making it the leading cause of these wrongful convictions. At least 40 percent of these eyewitness identifications involved a cross racial identification (race data is currently only available on the victim, not for non-victim eyewitnesses). Studies have shown that people are less able to recognize faces of a different race than their own. These suggested reforms are embraced by leading criminal justice organizations and have been adopted in the states of New Jersey and North Carolina, large cities like Minneapolis and Seattle, and many smaller jurisdictions. Read more.

Unvalidated or Improper Forensic Science played a role in 49 percent of wrongful convictions later overturned by DNA testing. While DNA testing was developed through extensive scientific research at top academic centers, many other forensic techniques – such as hair microscopy, bite mark comparisons, firearm tool mark analysis and shoe print comparisons – have never been subjected to rigorous scientific evaluation. Meanwhile, forensics techniques that have been properly validated – such as serology, commonly known as blood typing – are sometimes improperly conducted or inaccurately conveyed in trial testimony. In other wrongful conviction cases, forensic scientists have engaged in misconduct. Read more.

False confessions and incriminating statements lead to wrongful convictions in approximately 27 percent of cases. Looking only at the homicide cases, false confessions are the leading contributor to wrongful convictions, contributing to 64 (62%) of the 104 homicide wrongful convictions that were overturned by DNA evidence, where as misidentifications contributed to only 32 (31%) of the homicide wrongful convictions. Thirty of the DNA exonerees pled guilty to crimes they did not commit. The Innocence Project encourages police departments to electronically record all custodial interrogations in their entirety in order to prevent coercion and to provide an accurate record of the proceedings.

Informants contributed to wrongful convictions in 18 percent of cases. Whenever informant testimony is used, the Innocence Project recommends that the judge instruct the jury that most informant testimony is unreliable as it may be offered in return for deals, special treatment, or the dropping of charges. Prosecutors should also reveal any incentive the informant might receive, and all communication between prosecutors and informants should be recorded.



http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/......ide.php#

If some of the folks on this thread had their way, most of these guys would still be in prison, dead, or convicted without the benefit of an attorney.
Salguod Nairb
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Oh, and never take a polygraph. If you pass it won't stop them from continuing the investigation, and if you fail it can give provable cause to get a warrant.
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slowkneenuh
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Ah, the beauty of one-sided statistics. Unfortunately I cannot find one available that says how many guilty go free which I am certain far exceeds any convicted innocents. By the way I loved the concept behind the movie The Star Chamber.
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
Ah, the beauty of one-sided statistics. Unfortunately I cannot find one available that says how many guilty go free which I am certain far exceeds any convicted innocents. By the way I loved the concept behind the movie The Star Chamber.


If you had to choose between an innocent person and a guilty person both going free or both going to prison, which would you pick?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
slowkneenuh
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A more realistic question would be would you rather have 100 guilty people go free or an innocent man convicted. My answer; I would have to give my apologies to the innocent man as he went off to jail while promising to assist him in getting the decision reversed. In the meantime I am sleeping better at night knowing true criminals are locked up.
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
mastermindreader
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Instead of going to prison, make that being sentenced to death. Should they both go free, or should they both die?

Very sad to see that you characterize wrongful convictions and death sentences as "one-sided" statistics. I wonder how you'd feel if you were charged with a crime you didn't commit?

If you loved the Star Chamber, you'd love the North Korean justice system.
landmark
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Lobo wrote:
Quote:
No system is perfect; there will always be error on one side or the other (for all practical purposes, on both sides). Our system is designed to err on the side of letting guilty people go free rather than sending innocent people to prison.

The exclusionary rule (not allowing the evidence to be admitted) is not there for the protection of the defendant; it's there for the protection of future suspects. If the only thing that mattered were putting guilty people in prison, then why have a 4th Amendment at all? Unlimited, unrestricted searches would be the best way to convict guilty people. But there are competing goals. "Justice" is harmed by the fact that this person goes free, but it is helped by the fact that fewer suspects - including innocent suspects - are subject to illegal searches in the future.

The Bill of Rights is considered more important than any one criminal's incarceration, and it's undermined if police officers are incentivized - in the form of admitting evidence - to violate it.

Your mileage may vary, but that's the underlying philosophy.


Nice summary, thanks. But I think there is another way to look at it as well.

The exclusionary rule exists not just for the benefit of future suspects, but for this suspect as well simply because we don't do such things. It's like torture. People--all people, guilty, innocent-- have a right not to be tortured. Perhaps this is merely rephrasing what you have said; to me I think I'm seeing an extra nuance: that the right to be free from surveillance is an absolute right, not just one that needs to be balanced against the "better that the guilty go free than innocent be convicted" standard.
Salguod Nairb
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
A more realistic question would be would you rather have 100 guilty people go free or an innocent man convicted. My answer; I would have to give my apologies to the innocent man as he went off to jail while promising to assist him in getting the decision reversed. In the meantime I am sleeping better at night knowing true criminals are locked up.



What if you were the innocent person sent off to jail? Would you take one for the team? How would you be sleeping then?
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
slowkneenuh
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Unfortunately it takes tragedies to bring about positive change. Possibly our judicial system needs a wakeup call. Some posters here would be incapable of winning a war if protection of the innocent was a driving factor. If the leader of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria was exposed in a rarely seen opportunity with an "innocent" civilian next to him, what would you do?
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
slowkneenuh
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If wrongfully convicted I would march off to jail and tenaciously set off to prove my innocence and have the decision reversed. Relative to the number of offenders or the population in general, very few people get wrongfully convicted.
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
Salguod Nairb
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That's more of an apple and oranges kind of question. War and law and order do not go hand in hand. When you say leader of Iraq do you mean Fuad Masum or the leader of ISIS?
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Salguod Nairb
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I think you might change your mind after the first couple of nights.
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slowkneenuh
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Let me be more clear, I meant Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi the leader of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
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