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Dannydoyle
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Give you a break?. Sorry but you are very cavalier with the freedom of other folks. Once it is not an abstract someone else it is "give me a break. That is funny. How about to keep all the guilty in you and your family are the innocent ones? After all it has to be someones family right?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
acesover
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
I can't agree our system is the best.

"The incarceration rate in the United States of America is the highest in the world. As of October 2013, the incarceration rate was 716 per 100,000 of the national population. While the United States represents about 5 percent of the world's population, it houses around 25 percent of the world's prisoners."


I am missing your point. Are you saying because we have a lot of guilty people in jail that is a bad thing? Is that what you mean?

With our legal system here in the United States I would imagine it is harder to go to prison than just about anywhere else in the world. I could be way wrong on this.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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You'd imagine wrong- DESPITE the legal protections we all enjoy under the Constitution, including the right to counsel, we still have one of the highest incarceration rates, which can be accounted for by the abnormally high number of convictions for minor drug offenses and a disparate quality of representation in minority communities.

To those who think that it's okay that four out of every hundred on death row are innocent- I have nothing to say and just shake my head.
slowkneenuh
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Stop harping on the innocents convicted and address the much larger population of innocents affected by the criminals set free.
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
Dannydoyle
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One is too many.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mastermindreader
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On Aug 26, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
Stop harping on the innocents convicted and address the much larger population of innocents affected by the criminals set free.


Tell us, then, how many guilty criminals are set free. I don't want your opinion. I want sources for your information.

Sorry you see the defense of the innocents as "harping." It's an American justice thing.

It's the job of the prosecutor to prosecute and the defender to defend. I the prosecutor doesn't do his or her job properly, that's who you should be harping at- not the defense lawyers.
slowkneenuh
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Why do you guys ignore the repeat offenders that didn't get convicted and continue to harm innocents, including murdering them.

Look we are not going to change our opinions. You found out I am more than a pretty face and I am declaring myself the winner in this debate. Should you feel differently there are plenty of attorneys available to dispute my claim.
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
mastermindreader
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LOL! Well if you are the winner, that makes the Constitution the loser.

BTW, I asked for your proof. Notably, you didn't even bother trying to provide any.
LobowolfXXX
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What percentage of people on death row will be executed?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Slowkeenuh raises good points. We don't have to know the exact percentage of guilty defendants who are acquitted to know that a great many are. And it's not an either/or proposition. Yes, it's tragic when innocent people are convicted. It's also tragic when innocent people are victimized by guilty defendants who were acquitted.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
You'd imagine wrong- DESPITE the legal protections we all enjoy under the Constitution, including the right to counsel, we still have one of the highest incarceration rates, which can be accounted for by the abnormally high number of convictions for minor drug offenses and a disparate quality of representation in minority communities.

To those who think that it's okay that four out of every hundred on death row are innocent- I have nothing to say and just shake my head.


OK. I guess our laws on drugs are to strict. That could very well be the case. I have no idea what the answer to the drug problem is. Not sure there is an answer.I guess from your response it is not more laws that is for sure. Just like gun violence, more laws will not prevent it. However I am not sure where you get the info about 4% of the people on death row are innocent. If that is the case that is horrible for sure.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
What percentage of people on death row will be executed?


Beside the point. If four percent of them are innocent, they didn't belong there in the first place.

Lobo, you certainly aren't agreeing, are you, with the idea set forth here that the incarceration or execution of innocents is irrelevant as long as you get the guilty?

Yes, there is a problem when the guilty go free- but that is a problem for law enforcement and prosecutors. I think it's shameful that the blame seems to be placed on defense counsel.
mastermindreader
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Aces- I provided a link a few posts back to the source for that 4% figure. Here it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_ex......d_States

The link refers to a peer reviewed study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

See also: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/ap......innocent
Dannydoyle
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Charlie Scheen also declared himself a winner.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mastermindreader
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LOL!

Well it IS the cop-out way of winning any argument- simply declare a win and leave. Sounds what some would would have our courts do. No trial, just "You lose, we win, go to jail."
acesover
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Aces- I provided a link a few posts back to the source for that 4% figure. Here it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_ex......d_States

The link refers to a peer reviewed study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

See also: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/ap......innocent


I am sure some innocents have been executed. However arriving at a number is nothing but theory or am I missing something. I guess it could be higher or lower. because if we knew that those 4% were innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt, ha, ha why could they not be released. Or is this that if so much is thrown at the wall so much will stick so what sticks are the innocents and that is 4%? I am not disputing the 4% figure but reading the articles seems to be a lot of theory and not much positive fact. In other words no shadow of a doubt, ha, ha. Those who are supposedly innocent have not been found innocent, we just suppose that they are innocent because of some number crunching.
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Ray Tupper.
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I think it's shameful that the blame seems to be placed on defense counsel

I think that depends on the tactics/practices of the defence council.
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General_Magician
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I think people dumping on the defense counsel is unjustifiable. They have a job to do and a duty to fight tooth and nail for their client even he is a guilty dirtbag. If you are going to be a defense attorney then be a defense attorney and fight for your clients. If you are going to take Vienna, take Vienna and be the best you can be. It's an important part of the judicial process.
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mastermindreader
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Again, aces, there is no such thing as guilty "beyond a shadow of a doubt."

Why wasn't the innocent man charged with murder by arson in Texas released when new evidence showed that the fire was accidental? It was purely political. Governor Perry refused to give a stay of execution after the new evidence was discovered.

In other cases, prosecutors are reluctant to concede that they convicted an innocent person. Evidence goes missing, etc. If you read the links I posted you can discover for yourself why innocent defendants frequently remain in prison despite exculpatory evidence.

BTW- a peer reviewed study in a prestigious journal is a little bit more than just an "opinion."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
What percentage of people on death row will be executed?


Beside the point. If four percent of them are innocent, they didn't belong there in the first place.


I think it's quite relevant to the discussion at hand.

Quote:
Lobo, you certainly aren't agreeing, are you, with the idea set forth here that the incarceration or execution of innocents is irrelevant as long as you get the guilty?

I don't think anyone is taking that position.

Quote:
Yes, there is a problem when the guilty go free- but that is a problem for law enforcement and prosecutors. I think it's shameful that the blame seems to be placed on defense counsel.

That's like saying it's a just a problem for the defense attorneys when innocent people are convicted; after all, if they'd done a better job, it wouldn't have happened.

To some extent, it's a problem inherent in the system; that's a position that has been advanced here, and it's a position that has some merit.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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