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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Guns don't kill people... (35 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:

As for my study to back up the claims about drugs, I have written three books about the drugs wars over here. So plenty of facts to back up my assertions.

The qualification for writing a book is to have access to a pen or computer. What's the basis for the claim that legalization of pot would reduce the homicide rate by 40-50%?


Quote:
But despite the gang wars, and the actual war on half the island, we still don't have a gun culture over here. The USA has a problem, and most Americans are too hung up on various Amendment rights to even see it.


What's the definition of "a problem"? An Icelander might very well opine that Ireland has "a problem," with a homicide rate 400% of his country's.

Oh, and tell us again about how incidents like the one in Ferguson don't happen in Europe, and how safe it is for black residents. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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How about giving us those studies and facts?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Kinda reminds me of George Carlin...anyone who goes faster than you on the freeway is a manic. Your own speed doesn't really matter.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Just out of curiosity, how many posters in this thread would approve of Uzi lessons for cops?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
How about giving us those studies and facts?

Read one of my books:
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Feud-Gangla......y+galvin
or
http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Streets-Murd......y+galvin
TonyB2009
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On Aug 28, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
What's the definition of "a problem"?

A problem - a nine year old using an Uzi. Sandy Hook. Cops Show shooting in Omaha. But if you can't see that - and you obviously can't - then there is little point in me spoon feeding you the facts.
LobowolfXXX
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I didn't mean to go all polysyllabic on you and cause confusion. Those are examples, not a definition. You think I can't find examples of problems (fatal ones, even) in Ireland?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
How about giving us those studies and facts?

Read one of my books:
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Feud-Gangla......y+galvin
or
http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Streets-Murd......y+galvin


I'll support my fellow magician and give one of your books a whirl...got a recommendation for a starter pick?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tomsk192
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I don't see the wisdom of comparisons. I like to compare the UK with the USA on this matter, but I'm just naughty. The arguments in favour of sensible and proportionate gun control stand on their own merits.

All this talk of the six counties in relation to the gun culture of America. It reminds me of one of my father's favourite jokes.

There's a funeral at the local Synagogue. It's a brand new Rabbi taking the service. So, as is customary at such events, the Rabbi, who never even met the deceased, invites the people attending to offer stories and memories of the deceased, which works as a kind of community eulogy, if you will. Only trouble is, there're only a handful of people there, and nobody volunteers. Nobody.

"Please, will somebody share something? In memory of this man?

Please?"

An elderly man gets to his feet and clears his throat. He looks down at his wife and she gives him a nod. Reassured, he looks up to the Rabbi and says,

"His brother was worse."
tommy
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England, it's almost as safe as China but not quite as safe as North Korea where they have the most sensible and proportionate gun control I ever seen.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tomsk192
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Much safer than either of those countries, young man, primarily because almost nobody is starving to death, or dying of dehydration. Plenty of odious comparisons could be made, but in this case the cap doesn't fit.

If you've ever had a proper look at multiple, peer reviewed studies, and at the system behind them, you would probably draw one of two conclusions.

a) Up until comparatively recently, any figures coming out of China are hugely suspect by default. Now it is less so, but the facts remain.

b) It's all a big conspiracy against China. They never lie, and there is no political control over what results are published.

There are seventh, eighth and five millionth other views, but really.

North Korea? Try being born there with a disability. See how long you live.
tommy
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If they had guns perhaps they wouldn't have them problems old boy. If only the Irish had had guns then then English wouldn't have stolen half of it and there wouldn't have been any trouble at all. The red skins, they had bows and arrows and they didn't do so well without guns. Mind you the Việt cộng, all they had were a few peasants with pitch forks. And lets not forget Dads Army.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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Hmmmm....thos is getting very interesting.
tomsk192
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On Aug 29, 2014, tommy wrote:
If they had guns perhaps they wouldn't have them problems old boy. If only the Irish had had guns then then English wouldn't have stolen half of it and there wouldn't have been any trouble at all. The red skins, they had bows and arrows and they didn't do so well without guns. Mind you the Việt cộng, all they had were a few peasants with pitch forks. And lets not forget Dads Army.


Nope. It's to do with education, in the case of North Korea, and also in the case of China, which is in a completely different place, politically, than North Korea. That is thanks to education. The collapse of the Soviet Union was also due to education. Give people the power to reason and you're potentially in trouble, if what you are trying to do is to control them pacifically.

North Korea is a unique sovereign nation, in that it is controlled by a secular dictator who is promoted by the state to god-like status [nothing new there], and where outside broadcasting is utterly forbidden and made impossible for almost the entire nation. There is a very good reason that North Korea has to kidnap experts, from time to time.
Smile
rockwall
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On Aug 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Well since I don't believe that no one should own guns and also don't believe that 9 year olds, whether supervised or not, should be permitted to fire automatic weapons, I don't think I'm on either extreme.

I was just wondering if there 's anyone here who thinks that 9 year olds should be permitted to fire Uzis, whether supervised or not.

But to refine it a bit- Are there any here who think they should be able to fire them if they are supervised? (as was the case in Nevada)


But do you believe that there should be any legal restrictions to abortions?
rockwall
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, tommy wrote:
If they had guns perhaps they wouldn't have them problems old boy. If only the Irish had had guns then then English wouldn't have stolen half of it and there wouldn't have been any trouble at all. The red skins, they had bows and arrows and they didn't do so well without guns. Mind you the Việt cộng, all they had were a few peasants with pitch forks. And lets not forget Dads Army.


Nope. It's to do with education, in the case of North Korea, and also in the case of China, which is in a completely different place, politically, than North Korea. That is thanks to education. The collapse of the Soviet Union was also due to education. Give people the power to reason and you're potentially in trouble, if what you are trying to do is to control them pacifically.

North Korea is a unique sovereign nation, in that it is controlled by a secular dictator who is promoted by the state to god-like status [nothing new there], and where outside broadcasting is utterly forbidden and made impossible for almost the entire nation. There is a very good reason that North Korea has to kidnap experts, from time to time.
Smile


Ahh, education! I think that's how we beat the British too!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:
I don't see the wisdom of comparisons. I like to compare the UK with the USA on this matter, but I'm just naughty. The arguments in favour of sensible and proportionate gun control stand on their own merits.


First, I loved that joke.
Second, yours was the best post in this thread, as it raises a number of relevant issues, and I'd like to ask you to suspend your certainty while I comment on a few of them.

1) The arguments do, in one sense, stand on their own merits, but with at least one caveat - they have to be connected to some context. In particular, a death rate. For instance, let's say you have two countries that are in all other ways similar. However, Country A has a very cavalier attitude about gun ownership, and there are five guns for every citizen. But nobody in Country A has ever been murdered or died accidentally from a firearm; on the other hand, while Country B permits private gun ownership, it's very strictly regulated. There's one gun for every hundred people in the country. But in country B, 1% of the population dies in a gun-related death every year. Obviously (?!) in this situation, you'd say that Country B is the one with the problem, or at least the one with the bigger problem. The "redneck mentality" of Country A matters much less than the comparative death rates. Of course I realize that it's an absurd hypothetical; I deliberately constructed it that was to separate out the death rate from the culture so we could contrast and compare them.

2) Although the death rates are critical in evaluating whether and to what extent there's a "gun problem" in a country, unless one specifically researched it to write a book, or a paper, or an internet post, most people have no idea what the range of gun death rates around the country. Is one in 50,000 a good number? One in 150,000? One in 20,000? What's your country's homicide rate? How many people have a clue? But since the death rates are important (see point 1, above) you look up your country's homicide rate, and you look up other countries', as well. And you reach conclusions that are some ways wholly arbitrary. If you live in, say, Ireland, and you then look up the USA's rate and see that it's 4 times are big, you say, "My God! The USA has a gun problem!" But if instead you looked up Iceland's after you're own, and saw that it was four times smaller, you might have said (if you had some intellectual honesty about you) "My God! We have a gun problem!" Because you see whatever comparison you look for, and it gives you SOME context. But in reality, it's hard to distinguish between 0.000003, 0.000012, and 0.000047. To analogize to baseball, a .320 hitter is a much better hitter than a .280 hitter, BUT you can't tell a .320 hitter from a .280 hitter just by watching them. A .320 hitter gets about one more hit per week (he goes 8 for 25, while the .280 hitter goes 7 for 25). But with the magic of math, you compare the numbers and say, "Oh my! Player A is much better than Player B!"

3) BUT, as you note (ok, suggest), the comparison is specious. Because other things AREN'T equal. Some countries can enact strict gun control laws and thereby keep guns out of the hands of most criminals, because they are isolated geographically, small, and/or share relatively small borders with similarly economically situated countries; other countries share porous borders thousands of miles long with countries of vastly different socioeconomic conditions, providing a tremendous incentive for criminal enterprises (i.e. gangs, drug cartels, mafia,) to flout even the most serious anti-gun laws, with the result that anti-gun laws don't come anywhere near keeping guns out of the country, but rather merely keep guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, i.e. those who obey such laws.

4) BUT if your top priority it supporting an agenda (worldview, if you'd rather), and you have the numbers to show a correlation between gun ownership and homicide rate, or "redneck attitude" and homicide rate, then you can point to it and pretend that correlation = causation (which it doesn't ), and leave out a bunch of critical demographic and geographic differences that might go a long way toward explaining the real disparity between the homicide rates (how much more likely are you to be shot by someone with five guns than someone with one gun, really?)

5) For instance, let's stipulate that people in Ireland don't have a redneck attitude and don't own many guns. That means that something other than attitude and quantity of guns owned can account for a 4x swing in homicide rates (Iceland again). That being the case, it seems rather simplistic to blanketly attribute the 4x swing between Ireland and the USA simply to attitude and quantity of guns owned.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tomsk192
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Well since I don't believe that no one should own guns and also don't believe that 9 year olds, whether supervised or not, should be permitted to fire automatic weapons, I don't think I'm on either extreme.

I was just wondering if there 's anyone here who thinks that 9 year olds should be permitted to fire Uzis, whether supervised or not.

But to refine it a bit- Are there any here who think they should be able to fire them if they are supervised? (as was the case in Nevada)


But do you believe that there should be any legal restrictions to abortions?


Sweet Jesus, can't you get a lesson in logic? Please? You are so ****ing boring and so ****ing wrong. Some might even say "stupid".

Let me give you a clue, a helping hand. What you mean to talk about are p*n*s*s and v*g*n*s. That would be slightly better, but even then it would be the sh***est of all sh***y logical fallacies.

Don't attempt to measure these two things: you are on a road to nowhere. Only amongst your like minded peers will you find any succour for this shower of ****. I really don't wish you well, because I think I prefer reading the stains on a public toilet to what you have to say.

Ciao.
rockwall
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You are much too modest Lobo. I think it probably obvious to most everyone that your posts are the best posts in this thread.
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Well since I don't believe that no one should own guns and also don't believe that 9 year olds, whether supervised or not, should be permitted to fire automatic weapons, I don't think I'm on either extreme.

I was just wondering if there 's anyone here who thinks that 9 year olds should be permitted to fire Uzis, whether supervised or not.

But to refine it a bit- Are there any here who think they should be able to fire them if they are supervised? (as was the case in Nevada)


But do you believe that there should be any legal restrictions to abortions?


Sweet Jesus, can't you get a lesson in logic? Please? You are so ****ing boring and so ****ing wrong. Some might even say "stupid".

Let me give you a clue, a helping hand. What you mean to talk about are p*n*s*s and v*g*n*s. That would be slightly better, but even then it would be the sh***est of all sh***y logical fallacies.

Don't attempt to measure these two things: you are on a road to nowhere. Only amongst your like minded peers will you find any succour for this shower of ****. I really don't wish you well, because I think I prefer reading the stains on a public toilet to what you have to say.

Ciao.


Now THAT was an entertaining post!
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