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rockwall
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The question I have about this whole thread is why would someone choose this tragic accident to try and make a point? I mean, how many deaths a year can be attributed to 9 year old girls shooting uzi’s? What solution do have to prevent similar tragedies? Make it against the law for children to shoot uzi’s? OK, how many lives do you think you will save? 1, 2, 5?

If you have a problem with the gun culture in America, there are much worse recent tragedies to try and make your point. I find it much more tragic the number of kids and deaths by shooting that occur in Chicago on a regular basis. Over the August 22nd weekend there were 30 shootings, including several children. Earlier in the week a nine year old boy was shot six times. This isn’t a one-time occurrence, it’s a regular occurrence. I find this infinitely more tragic than the horrific accident in the OP. It was an accident. Admittedly, one caused by extremely poor judgment. But what’s happening in Chicago isn’t an accident.

So, what’s your solution for that? Chicago already has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.
And while you may believe that “it is safe to be coloured and walk our streets”, it’s actually safe in most of the US also. Unless you’re in Chicago. Blacks are killed by other blacks in around 93% of cases. Now THAT’S a tragedy. You want to blame that on all those black crackers?

Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.
acesover
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^^^^^ Smile Smile ^^^^^
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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Quote:
But do you believe that there should be any legal restrictions to abortions?


I note that you simply ignored my question and asked an unrelated one, but I'll be happy to answer.

Yes, there should be restrictions on abortions, and there are. You probably never read the actual case, but Roe v. Wade specifically lays out the legal restrictions that may be placed on abortions, balancing the legitimate interests of the state with a woman's right to privacy under the 14th Amendment.

And since I agree with Roe v. Wade, the answer to your question is, "Yes."

Now can we get back on topic?
R.S.
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, rockwall wrote:
The question I have about this whole thread is why would someone choose this tragic accident to try and make a point? I mean, how many deaths a year can be attributed to 9 year old girls shooting uzi’s? What solution do have to prevent similar tragedies? Make it against the law for children to shoot uzi’s? OK, how many lives do you think you will save? 1, 2, 5?

If you have a problem with the gun culture in America, there are much worse recent tragedies to try and make your point. I find it much more tragic the number of kids and deaths by shooting that occur in Chicago on a regular basis. Over the August 22nd weekend there were 30 shootings, including several children. Earlier in the week a nine year old boy was shot six times. This isn’t a one-time occurrence, it’s a regular occurrence. I find this infinitely more tragic than the horrific accident in the OP. It was an accident. Admittedly, one caused by extremely poor judgment. But what’s happening in Chicago isn’t an accident.

So, what’s your solution for that? Chicago already has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.
And while you may believe that “it is safe to be coloured and walk our streets”, it’s actually safe in most of the US also. Unless you’re in Chicago. Blacks are killed by other blacks in around 93% of cases. Now THAT’S a tragedy. You want to blame that on all those black crackers?

Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.


Translation... the problem is not with our nation's gun obsession, lax gun laws, or parental lapses of judgment. No. It's with them "thugs" in Chicago and Ferguson.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
mastermindreader
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I'm surprised that he didn't manage to get "Benghazi!" in there. (But the "black cracker" comment is interesting.)

As to the attempt to dismiss the incident as simply a "tragic accident," I have to ask- what was "accidental" about it? Did someone accidentally give a loaded Uzi set to fully automatic to a nine-year old? Did someone "accidentally" glorify guns to the point where firing military weapons is deemed to be a fun activity for the whole family?

What was the accident? What happened is simply an expected result.
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Quote:
Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.

Chomsky and Herman are indeed important to read. Now that you've read the Wikipedia articles, read their books. You will then have a better idea of what power means, who holds it, and who controls the means of propaganda. Spoiler alert: it might have something to do with wealth, class, gender, and color.
landmark
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Serious question--and if you don't think it's analogous, an intellectually honest answer would have to explain why the analogy is not pertinent: Do we think 9-year-olds should be allowed to drive a semi, if supervised by a qualified instructor?
Pecan_Creek
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.

Chomsky and Herman are indeed important to read. Now that you've read the Wikipedia articles, read their books. You will then have a better idea of what power means, who holds it, and who controls the means of propaganda. Spoiler alert: it might have something to do with wealth, class, gender, and color.



Why do right wingers always try to point out that the Chicago murder rate is under reported by the "media" when they themselves are always reporting on it?

Fact is is it reported , there are organizations trying to solve the inner city violence problem every day. Why doesn't the NRA get involved with some kind of campaign if their members are so concerened about it.

President Obama has started an initiative called "My brothers keeper" to help address these types of violence issues all over the nation. But that isn't reported by Faux news.

The reason the OP's post is a beacon for this issue is because the gun nuts always preach that a well trained and well armed citizen is a safe citizen and no one should interfere with their rights to to whatever they want with their guns.

This tragedy was caused by a few of those well armed and well trained citizens. Theses are the people that will eventually get gun laws changed because of their reckless behavior. The gang bangers in Chicago won't affect the coming legislation because no one in the gun lobby cares about them, they are just used as a straw men to deflect attention from the idiots that aren't responsible gun owners.

Signed,
Responsible Gun Totin Left Winger.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, rockwall wrote:


...Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.


The fact that you, of all people, are trying to support your right-wing ideology with the the philosophy of a libertarian socialist who would probably disagree with you on virtually everything, makes it obvious that you haven't read Chomskey, nor do you seem to know anything about him.
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It might have been said earlier in this thread but if not....

Of course the death and mental scars on those involved are the tragic results and gun control is the debate, but what about the other factors involving common sense.

The location (my caps): "BULLETS and BURGERS" is a TOURIST ATTRACTION outside of Las Vegas in Arizona. The girl and her family were visiting from New Jersey. How do you vet the qualifications of minors and visitors to engage in this potentially dangerous activity?

As reported: "It turns out that the range is actually an extremely popular tourist destination at the Arizona Last Stop, and as HollywoodLife.com previously reported it allows children as young as 8 years old to take lessons.

According to it’s own website, Burgers & Bullets specializes in allowing visitors to shoot a “wide range of fully automatic machine guns.” What is even more disturbing is that the website glorifies the idea of shooting automatic weapons by using images from hit Hollywood films such as Rambo, Terminator, and Jumanji."

It has since closed.
John

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RNK
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.

Chomsky and Herman are indeed important to read. Now that you've read the Wikipedia articles, read their books. You will then have a better idea of what power means, who holds it, and who controls the means of propaganda. Spoiler alert: it might have something to do with wealth, class, gender, and color.



Why do right wingers always try to point out that the Chicago murder rate is under reported by the "media" when they themselves are always reporting on it?

Fact is is it reported , there are organizations trying to solve the inner city violence problem every day. Why doesn't the NRA get involved with some kind of campaign if their members are so concerened about it.


Signed,
Responsible Gun Totin Left Winger.


Where is it always reported in the liberal media, please provide examples? Yes- fox reports it- thank god- because you would hardly hear of it if they didn't since they are the only media that you could call right wing left out there. What other station is right wing?

And how do you address, as Danny states, Chicago already has the strictest gun laws around and yet still cannot stop these shootings? Further- 93% BLACK on BLACK! But yet- we here in the US are not fair to the blacks. Please- if they (and all races for that matter) would act accordingly they would be treated fair. If Michael Brown would have had some respect and just moved off the road when told instead of SLAMMING the door into the police officer as he was trying to get out and spouting off at the mouth he would still be alive. No one ever blames the individuals actions when it comes to race. And I apply this to ALL races- not just blacks. But it's a fact that Blacks only make up less than 14% of US population but yet make up greater than 40% of our prison population! Look at the number of black children born out of wedlock- over 70%! This is crazy! No wonder the tend to revolt when they don't have a stable family life and two parents (especially a father) that cares and wants to teach them about respect and love.

Is there racial inequality in the US? Some will argue yes. If that's true- America's first half black and half white president would have never gotten elected by the Black Vote only!

RNK
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Mystification
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People who are scared, want to outlaw things instead of using common sense. Gun control fails miserably everywhere it is tried in the United States. That is a fact.
mastermindreader
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I was wondering when the "They want to outlaw guns!" straw man was going to appear in this thread.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, rockwall wrote:
The question I have about this whole thread is why would someone choose this tragic accident to try and make a point? I mean, how many deaths a year can be attributed to 9 year old girls shooting uzi’s? What solution do have to prevent similar tragedies? Make it against the law for children to shoot uzi’s? OK, how many lives do you think you will save? 1, 2, 5?

If you have a problem with the gun culture in America, there are much worse recent tragedies to try and make your point. I find it much more tragic the number of kids and deaths by shooting that occur in Chicago on a regular basis. Over the August 22nd weekend there were 30 shootings, including several children. Earlier in the week a nine year old boy was shot six times. This isn’t a one-time occurrence, it’s a regular occurrence. I find this infinitely more tragic than the horrific accident in the OP. It was an accident. Admittedly, one caused by extremely poor judgment. But what’s happening in Chicago isn’t an accident.

So, what’s your solution for that? Chicago already has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.
And while you may believe that “it is safe to be coloured and walk our streets”, it’s actually safe in most of the US also. Unless you’re in Chicago. Blacks are killed by other blacks in around 93% of cases. Now THAT’S a tragedy. You want to blame that on all those black crackers?

Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.


Translation... the problem is not with our nation's gun obsession, lax gun laws, or parental lapses of judgment. No. It's with them "thugs" in Chicago and Ferguson.


Ron


I'm assuming that you're being ironic here, but whether accidental or not, you're at least partially right. Most of the problem is, of course, with the people who use guns to commit murders and armed robberies.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, landmark wrote:
Serious question--and if you don't think it's analogous, an intellectually honest answer would have to explain why the analogy is not pertinent: Do we think 9-year-olds should be allowed to drive a semi, if supervised by a qualified instructor?


You're not supposed to discuss motor vehicles in a thread about weaponry, I've been told.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Why not? But I think it would be wrong to teach a child how to run people over or crash into things with a semi. (Although I concede that some may disagree.)
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.

Chomsky and Herman are indeed important to read. Now that you've read the Wikipedia articles, read their books. You will then have a better idea of what power means, who holds it, and who controls the means of propaganda. Spoiler alert: it might have something to do with wealth, class, gender, and color.



Why do right wingers always try to point out that the Chicago murder rate is under reported by the "media" when they themselves are always reporting on it?

Fact is is it reported , there are organizations trying to solve the inner city violence problem every day. Why doesn't the NRA get involved with some kind of campaign if their members are so concerened about it.

President Obama has started an initiative called "My brothers keeper" to help address these types of violence issues all over the nation. But that isn't reported by Faux news.

The reason the OP's post is a beacon for this issue is because the gun nuts always preach that a well trained and well armed citizen is a safe citizen and no one should interfere with their rights to to whatever they want with their guns.

This tragedy was caused by a few of those well armed and well trained citizens. Theses are the people that will eventually get gun laws changed because of their reckless behavior. The gang bangers in Chicago won't affect the coming legislation because no one in the gun lobby cares about them, they are just used as a straw men to deflect attention from the idiots that aren't responsible gun owners.

Signed,
Responsible Gun Totin Left Winger.


I'm not familiar with Faux News, but I've heard about My Brother's Keeper on Fox News a few times. I assume you're just guessing when you say they don't cover it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I was wondering when the "They want to outlaw guns!" straw man was going to appear in this thread.


Probably when Balducci posted the link to a CNN ("cnsiderably more middle of the road than Fox..." -(Cassidy)) poll that said, et al., that 15% believe "All guns should be illegal for everyone except police and authorized personnel." Or when our European friend said that Bill of Rights has outlived its usefulness and we have no need to carry weapons.

So...what straw man? Or are you still going to claim that nobody takes that position?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Why not? But I think it would be wrong to teach a child how to run people over or crash into things with a semi. (Although I concede that some may disagree.)



It's been a while. I think it's because vehicles have wheels.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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So do old battle cannons.
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