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tommy
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Listen - strange women lying in ponds distributing a century old experiment based on some CO2 enclosed in a glass bottle, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic experiment.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, landmark wrote:
Serious question--and if you don't think it's analogous, an intellectually honest answer would have to explain why the analogy is not pertinent: Do we think 9-year-olds should be allowed to drive a semi, if supervised by a qualified instructor?


I think you can make a better case for the semi than the gun, because it's easier to ensure the safety with the semi (closed course, you can't run over yourself, etc.) I think the Uzi is inherently more dangerous, which might make it a bad analogy. They have pretty young kids flying airplanes (of course that's a whole other discussion), which has to be more dangerous than a semi.

I expect, though, my "perhaps not pertinent" argues in a way that is different than objections you were anticipating, but maybe I'm assuming too much. I would think that you're trying to get people to admit that we shouldn't let children drive semis, so therefore, we shouldn't let them shoot Uzis. I'm thinking you might be expecting responses that think it's a bad analogy and say, "Well, of course we shouldn't let them drive semis, but that's not a good analogy; of course they can shoot Uzis," whereas, my response would be that semis might be ok, but not Uzis.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Potty the Pirate
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, Potty the Pirate wrote:
Http://abcnews.go.com/US/father-christop......12565132



I don't know if anyone followed the link above, but this happened in the US before, an 8-year-old boy killed himself with an Uzi a few years ago. It seems astonishing to me, that this could have been allowed to happen again, after that previous tragic event.
The Hermit
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TonyB2009 - Why the harping on redneck gun culture? As a Redneck (southerner) I object. Gun ownership is widespread and hunting culture (primary source of gun ownership) cuts across all demographics. Most of the gun ownership is for hunting and not recreational shooting. There is nothing inherently 'Redneck' about gun ownership. People in the US do not horde guns with trigger happy intent Most are responsible people that have learned gun safety thru courses or their family. When I was a child, we had many guns in the house. I was taught at a young age how to use them. I would never have picked one up to play with it. Most of my friends were the same. You have plenty of guns in Europe. And, a good share of mass murders. Does Norway have a redneck gun culture?

Gun Deaths and Black on Black crime - It's gang members killing other gang members for the most part. That's why no one cares about it. Especially the police. They are happy when gangs kill each other and eliminate some of the problem. When an innocent is harmed during gang shootings, you hear about it plenty. It's a shame, but the problem is gangs not guns.

The Nevada incident is the result of stupid parents, a questionable gun range permission and an instructor that should have known that an Uzi when fired on auto pulls left. In any event, a proper instructor would have been behind the shooter. That's how it's done.
tommy
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An Uzi is not an huntimg gun but in a country where the cops carry all sorts of guns I think the people need to arm themselves accordingly. But I don't see what that has got to do with fox news and the redskins.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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landmark
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, landmark wrote:
Serious question--and if you don't think it's analogous, an intellectually honest answer would have to explain why the analogy is not pertinent: Do we think 9-year-olds should be allowed to drive a semi, if supervised by a qualified instructor?


I think you can make a better case for the semi than the gun, because it's easier to ensure the safety with the semi (closed course, you can't run over yourself, etc.) I think the Uzi is inherently more dangerous, which might make it a bad analogy. They have pretty young kids flying airplanes (of course that's a whole other discussion), which has to be more dangerous than a semi.

I expect, though, my "perhaps not pertinent" argues in a way that is different than objections you were anticipating, but maybe I'm assuming too much. I would think that you're trying to get people to admit that we shouldn't let children drive semis, so therefore, we shouldn't let them shoot Uzis. I'm thinking you might be expecting responses that think it's a bad analogy and say, "Well, of course we shouldn't let them drive semis, but that's not a good analogy; of course they can shoot Uzis," whereas, my response would be that semis might be ok, but not Uzis.


You would be correct in understanding what my aim was. I think the burden is now on the "it was only the instructor's fault" believers to refute my analogy if possible.

Personally, I think the only possible out is the 2nd Amendment. But you would have a difficult time, I suspect, claiming the 2nd Amendment applies to 9 year olds.
Dannydoyle
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Why is it ok to slur people who own guns and none of the PC left cry about name calling?

Just another consistency check failed miserably.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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The instructor was not the best.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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I don't think that making an activity - even an inherently dangerous activity - legal necessarily creates fault. Congress could make baseball illegal; does the fact that they didn't make it there fault that Ray Chapman died (after getting struck in the head by a pitch, way back in the day)?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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How about the amount of people killed by baseball bats every year?

While it is nowhere near as many and it is much less efficient eventually as you outlaw activity a new one becomes the "most dangerous". First the amount in the magazine. Then the caliber, then why have any guns, then why have knives and so forth.

But fortunately there is no reason for a slippery slope argument. We have restrictions on guns, much like on abortions. Now people want to say "reasonable" restrictions and that word is not easily defined as it is subjective.

This is where states rights come into play. If you don't want to live in a state that has open carry gun laws move to one that does not. The constitution already provides for such a thing. Why does everything have to be federal? You can move to a city like the inner city of Chicago where they have some great gun control laws and enjoy a similar paradise to Ireland. Good plan there. Take away a constitutional right and make guns legal and all is right with the world.

Tony still waiting for those studies where you back up the 50% claim.
Danny Doyle
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rockwall
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And finally, in the spirit of simplistic questions that have been asked in this thread:

Is there anyone here who thinks that what is happening in Chicago with the number of weekly shootings and deaths is LESS tragic than what happened with the 9 year old girl?
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Rockwall, it's more tragic because there are more victims, many attempts to curb it have failed, and it appears as if it will be accepted as the norm in that area. Unfortunately, once the shock wears off in a tragic or repetitive situation, most folks become numb to it and everyone gets back to business as usual.
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magicfish
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I'm surprised that he didn't manage to get "Benghazi!" in there. (But the "black cracker" comment is interesting.)

As to the attempt to dismiss the incident as simply a "tragic accident," I have to ask- what was "accidental" about it? Did someone accidentally give a loaded Uzi set to fully automatic to a nine-year old? Did someone "accidentally" glorify guns to the point where firing military weapons is deemed to be a fun activity for the whole family?

What was the accident? What happened is simply an expected result.

Agreed, hence my safety tips stated earlier.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
Rockwall, it's more tragic because there are more victims, many attempts to curb it have failed, and it appears as if it will be accepted as the norm in that area. Unfortunately, once the shock wears off in a tragic or repetitive situation, most folks become numb to it and everyone gets back to business as usual.
!


THIS is the main problem! YES YES YES. Guns are not the issue, it is the fact that it becomes a "new norm". This is a societal embarrassment in my eyes. How as a society can we become accustomed to it?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, rockwall wrote:
The question I have about this whole thread is why would someone choose this tragic accident to try and make a point? I mean, how many deaths a year can be attributed to 9 year old girls shooting uzi’s? What solution do have to prevent similar tragedies? Make it against the law for children to shoot uzi’s? OK, how many lives do you think you will save? 1, 2, 5?

If you have a problem with the gun culture in America, there are much worse recent tragedies to try and make your point. I find it much more tragic the number of kids and deaths by shooting that occur in Chicago on a regular basis. Over the August 22nd weekend there were 30 shootings, including several children. Earlier in the week a nine year old boy was shot six times. This isn’t a one-time occurrence, it’s a regular occurrence. I find this infinitely more tragic than the horrific accident in the OP. It was an accident. Admittedly, one caused by extremely poor judgment. But what’s happening in Chicago isn’t an accident.

So, what’s your solution for that? Chicago already has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.
And while you may believe that “it is safe to be coloured and walk our streets”, it’s actually safe in most of the US also. Unless you’re in Chicago. Blacks are killed by other blacks in around 93% of cases. Now THAT’S a tragedy. You want to blame that on all those black crackers?

Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.


Translation... the problem is not with our nation's gun obsession, lax gun laws, or parental lapses of judgment. No. It's with them "thugs" in Chicago and Ferguson.


Ron


I'm assuming that you're being ironic here, but whether accidental or not, you're at least partially right. Most of the problem is, of course, with the people who use guns to commit murders and armed robberies.


Cute. But we both know what Rockwall was referring to, now don't we (wink, wink). He took a thread about a specific incident (a 9 year old girl being handed a live Uzi), and injected race into it.

Ron

No it became about gun control and the merits of the idea. No wink wink, no conspiracy, no hidden agenda.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mastermindreader
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Some think that we can make the problem go away by pretending that when a nine-year old is allowed to shoot an Uzi, that the predicable result in merely an accident.

Really sad to see them trivialize it that way.

How long until we are told that allowing a kid to take a bath is more dangerous than giving them an Uzi? How long before we hear that automatic weapons are actually wonderful playthings for children?

Oh, wait, the NRA already said that in the tweet they released right after the Las Vegas Uzi shooting.
R.S.
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:

No it became about gun control and the merits of the idea.


Really?? Then what, pray tell, was being discussed prior to that post?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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We'd have to know how many 9-year olds have safely handled Uzis to know how unexpected the result was.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, rockwall wrote:
The question I have about this whole thread is why would someone choose this tragic accident to try and make a point? I mean, how many deaths a year can be attributed to 9 year old girls shooting uzi’s? What solution do have to prevent similar tragedies? Make it against the law for children to shoot uzi’s? OK, how many lives do you think you will save? 1, 2, 5?

If you have a problem with the gun culture in America, there are much worse recent tragedies to try and make your point. I find it much more tragic the number of kids and deaths by shooting that occur in Chicago on a regular basis. Over the August 22nd weekend there were 30 shootings, including several children. Earlier in the week a nine year old boy was shot six times. This isn’t a one-time occurrence, it’s a regular occurrence. I find this infinitely more tragic than the horrific accident in the OP. It was an accident. Admittedly, one caused by extremely poor judgment. But what’s happening in Chicago isn’t an accident.

So, what’s your solution for that? Chicago already has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.
And while you may believe that “it is safe to be coloured and walk our streets”, it’s actually safe in most of the US also. Unless you’re in Chicago. Blacks are killed by other blacks in around 93% of cases. Now THAT’S a tragedy. You want to blame that on all those black crackers?

Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.


Translation... the problem is not with our nation's gun obsession, lax gun laws, or parental lapses of judgment. No. It's with them "thugs" in Chicago and Ferguson.


Ron


I'm assuming that you're being ironic here, but whether accidental or not, you're at least partially right. Most of the problem is, of course, with the people who use guns to commit murders and armed robberies.


Cute. But we both know what Rockwall was referring to, now don't we (wink, wink). He took a thread about a specific incident (a 9 year old girl being handed a live Uzi), and injected race into it.

Ron


Actually, TonyB injected race into the discussion, but it's fairly typical around here (and elsewhere) to focus much more scrutiny on those you disagree with.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Some think that we can make the problem go away by pretending that when a nine-year old is allowed to shoot an Uzi, that the predicable result in merely an accident.

Really sad to see them trivialize it that way.

How long until we are told that allowing a kid to take a bath is more dangerous than giving them an Uzi? How long before we hear that automatic weapons are actually wonderful playthings for children?

Oh, wait, the NRA already said that in the tweet they released right after the Las Vegas Uzi shooting.


In the 1990's the state police of Illinois stopped using the term car "accident". It was referred to as a "crash". Why? Because generally it can be avoided somehow.

I only mention that because I am not sure the word "accident" applies here.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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