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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Guns don't kill people... (35 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mastermindreader
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The time travel enigmas would kick in. Reminds me of the Stephen King novel 11/22/63. The protagonist goes back in time and prevents the Kennedy assassination. The fabric of the universe starts to collapse.
Dannydoyle
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Yea then the thing that caused you to go back in time in the first place would not have happened, so you would not be compelled to go and so forth.

BUT by the same token it is as realistic a dilemma as a girl in a wheel chair in a fertility clinic with thousands of fertilized embryos.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mastermindreader
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But what if you could go forward in time and found out that the embryos were all clones of Hitler- the boys from Brazil?
R.S.
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Suppose you are the only adult in a fertility clinic. There is also a 5 year old girl (in a wheelchair, say) and a container of 1,000 frozen embryos. A devastating and quick moving fire breaks out and your only option is to either a) carry out the container of embryos, letting the 5 year old perish, or b) carry out the 5 year old girl, letting the 1,000 embryos be destroyed. Which would you choose?


Ron


Yea fake moral dilemmas to make a point are great mental exercises and all. What exactly do you think they prove?

You don't believe killing is right, but what if you could go back in time and kill Hitler? (OOOOO A Hitler point!)


Care to answer the question Danny? Why is it so far fetched?

Talk about fake moral dilemmas! Let me know when you have a working time machine. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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So far, for the record, Bob and myself would save the little girl. Anybody else care to answer? Anybody here who would save the 1,000 embryos and let the girl burn to death?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
tomsk192
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Ech!

Still with the abortion? You sick *****. The mayhem suddenly makes sense. Sorry for you.

Image
tomsk192
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So the argument goes:

It's legal to kill unborn children [sic]: therefore it's okay to shoot the **** out of everything with stupidly powerful weapons. Oh yeah.

Makes perfect sense to me. Anyone for tennis?
tommy
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The Hitler youth movement springs to mind.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tomsk192
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Or just a bunch of a*&^h*&%s, tommy?
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
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On Sep 2, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is ending the development of life.


Then every teen age boy is guilty of genocide in the privacy of his own room.Smile


Not until at EARLIEST conception, but you knew that and this was a good joke.


Actually, in the Middle Ages- and even later- it was believed that the entire miniature human was contained in the sperm. Hence, such activity WAS genocide in the minds of many. Fortunately, even then there were rational people who didn't accept dogma as certainty.

Hence the Monty Python tune.
balducci
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, R.S. wrote:

So far, for the record, Bob and myself would save the little girl. Anybody else care to answer? Anybody here who would save the 1,000 embryos and let the girl burn to death?

Ron

Is this the same girl who grows up to kill a man with an uzi?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is ending the development of life.


Then every teen age boy is guilty of genocide in the privacy of his own room.Smile


Not until at EARLIEST conception, but you knew that and this was a good joke.


Actually, in the Middle Ages- and even later- it was believed that the entire miniature human was contained in the sperm. Hence, such activity WAS genocide in the minds of many. Fortunately, even then there were rational people who didn't accept dogma as certainty.

Hence the Monty Python tune.


See this is educational. I had no idea!

And Ron please. Talk to me when you have a fire and a little girl in a wheelchair and I have to choose. I know balducci is feverishly googling right now to find you some help.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tomsk192
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Why are you even bothering to answer that? It's an unrelated problem. R.S. is being a tw@t.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, R.S. wrote:

So far, for the record, Bob and myself would save the little girl. Anybody else care to answer? Anybody here who would save the 1,000 embryos and let the girl burn to death?

Ron

Is this the same girl who grows up to kill a man with an uzi?


Yes and several others later in life.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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It's hard to believe that it's legal. I mean, I can imagine someone allowing his nine year old daughter to shoot an Uzi, because there is one every in village they say. However I can not imagine how law makers, presumably a well educated, reasonable group, in the cold light of day, making a law which allows it. The children at that age, they are not even criminally responsible are they? Even if it were perfectly safe, wouldn't it still be physiologically disturbing? It seems to me, really creepy.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:
So the argument goes:

It's legal to kill unborn children [sic]: therefore it's okay to shoot the **** out of everything with stupidly powerful weapons. Oh yeah.

Makes perfect sense to me. Anyone for tennis?



If that's how little you understand the analogy, I can see where it would be so frustrating.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
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On Sep 2, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Stop. Take a breath. Consider the difference between "the moral standards I have for myself" and "the laws that should bind every single citizen, regardless of their personal beliefs".

Breathe deeply.

Think about why the questions are separate. Think about what your country would be like if they weren't.


I did all of the above. Nothing happened or changed. We still have abortion issues, we still have gun right issues, we have good people and bad people. We have laws making abortion legal regardless of how horrible it is in reality.

What was supposed to happen when I took this deep breath? I was really looking for something to happen that was wonderful.

Moral standards one sets for ones self is an off the wall statement. With that in mind one can rationalize anything they want to be morally correct in their mind. Morality is like porn. I know it when I see it just as most people do. But they do not care. Morals be darned. Live for the moment and try and fix it later. If it does not work out. So what? I will change my moral attitude and now it is OK. Problem solved. Honestly it does not work that way. Many people know what is morally right or wrong but refuse to act upon it if it does not please them. They do not want to be inconveinced.

In your above statement do you really believe that abortion is a good law and should be used as a birth control measure for convenience? Or do you feel that it is somewhat immoral? Because if you feel that it is somewhat immoral...well there is no such thing as somewhat immoral. It either is or it isn't. It is like being PG. You are not a little PG. You are or you aren't. That is why abortion is immoral.

Best to take what anyone says here with a grain of salt. Because there are a myriad of opinions and morals that exist, and many can be found here. No one is going to change the moral fiber of another person on a magic forum. Besides I am not trying to change anyone just expressing my thoughts. As I have stated in previous forum discussions. I am not a missionary. Nothing more than an individual with my own thoughts and convictions. They may differ from yours. So be it.


Do you want someone else deciding your moral issues for you?


Then why do you want to make them for everyone else?


Odd how this logic always stops just short of being inconvenient for you isn't it?


Please explain. I do not want to set anyone else's moral standards and I don't want them to set them for me. Where's the problem, Danny?


It's not about setting anyone's moral standards; it's about using the power of government for force others to adhere to one's own moral beliefs. And that's what's happening whether we're talking about outlawing abortion, or Uzis, or the ACA. The position that some people should be required to buy health insurance to help subsidize health insurance for others who might not otherwise be able to afford it is a moral position. The position that government sanctions should be placed on a business that comes to terms with a worker to pay the worker a wage below an arbitrary rate is a moral position, and so on.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:


Are you suggesting a society without legislators or a president?


Of course not. But I do believe in a private/public distinction. And (plug your ears, Stone) in the Harm Principle.



...then the guy says, "So now we're just haggling over price!"
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Sorry the ending of a life is framed poorly for you.


Again, whether a fetus is a life is exactly what is being contested.

Is a woman who has an abortion guilty of murder in your opinion? Should she get capital punishment?


In this day and age she should have her head examined for getting PG in the first place.

Do you believe in capital punishment? Who murdered the baby her or the doctor performing the abortion? She gave her consent for murder knowingly. What is the punishment for allowing a murder to take place when you could have prevented it. Answer that question and you will find what her punishment should be based on if she was not raped or her life was not in jeopardy in having her child. She paid a doctor to murder her child. So you decide her punishment because if she had the baby her life would be so terrible as to have a child killed so she would not be inconvenienced. You decide her punishment because you would not like my decision. Also if her mom and dad are to old and cannot care for themselves she should have them Euthanized as not to interfere with her life style. After all they are just like a child and cannot care for themselves in many cases and need constant attention. they are such a burden on her. So just get rid of them like a fetus. They probably will not know what is happening same as her child whom was aborted..
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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@aces, Danny: If you think abortion is murder then certainly the woman is at least an accomplice. What is the usual punishment for accomplice to murder?

While there may be be a few people who believe that a woman who has an abortion is a murderer and thus deserves the punishment for murder, I think the percentage of such people even among those who wish to make abortion illegal is very low.

That points to the fact that most people--pro legal abortion or anti-legal abortion--have a sense that abortion is something different from murder, whether they admit it or not. See Lobo's comment earlier for the same argument on the other side.

To me, what those two arguments on both sides of the issue add up to, is that abortion is a very particular situation that needs its own case law. No amount of moral hairsplitting will ever solve it, because it is a social issue not a moral one.
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