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mastermindreader
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Refer back to the Sandra Fluke thread.
LobowolfXXX
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Surely that thread can't still be around?! :o


Why, in your opinion, do most abortions take place?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Hard to say, because it is, rightfully, a decision made between a woman and her doctor. But, if I had to guess, I'd say poverty (inability to afford another child), medical reasons, career reasons, unmarried/underage, failure of birth control method, rape, incest, and a plethora of other reasons that I can't imagine because I'm not privy to doctor patient communications.

I'd say that "primary means of birth control" would be very low on the list of reasons women get abortions. From what I'm told, it's not exactly a pleasant procedure.
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I think very few people would suggest primary means of birth control.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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I'd hope not. But some people seem to think that women have a cavalier attitude toward sex and see abortion simply as a matter of convenience. It's even been suggested that if they are worried about getting pregnant they shouldn't have sex in the first place as the entire purpose of sex is to procreate. I don't want to put words in aces' mouth, but that's the general position I seem to get from him.
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While that would indeed prevent pregnancy every time it is tries it is hardly realistic. Chastity belts hardly worked.

I would think abortions as birth control would be more expensive than condemns. Especially as a primary source.
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
acesover
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Hard to say, because it is, rightfully, a decision made between a woman and her doctor. But, if I had to guess, I'd say poverty (inability to afford another child), medical reasons, career reasons, unmarried/underage, failure of birth control method, rape, incest, and a plethora of other reasons that I can't imagine because I'm not privy to doctor patient communications.

I'd say that "primary means of birth control" would be very low on the list of reasons women get abortions. From what I'm told, it's not exactly a pleasant procedure.



Very unpleasant for the fetus. You are correct.
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acesover
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Here is a good read. Even mentions a few of your favorite news media:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014......bortion/
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mastermindreader
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Aces-

Have you ever been to an abortion clinic? Do you have any family members who have undergone the procedure? (That you know of.)
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On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
No straw man at all. Aces has stated in many threads that he believes women don't take abortion seriously and that they just do it to make their life easier (i.e happier). Not to mention what he's said about unmarried women who have the temerity to engage in sex. (You do recall the Sandra Fluke thread, right?)


There must be two aces here. I do not remember saying that sex was only for procreation. You may have read into that. In fact I said in this thread several times there are many ways to prevent becoming PG. If it was only for procreation that would mean one would have to stop after the wife is unable to bear children. I could not handle that. Smile Also Bob there is more to sex than just the act of pro creation. If you thought that you have missed a whole lot of good sex. Not to mention I feel sorry for your partner.

Also Bob on the abortion issue please don't even mention rape and incest as I believe they represent less than 3% of the reason for abortion. In fact abortion can and is used if the mother tobe does not like the sex of the child. In simpler terms. What it is a boy! Kill it I want a girl. Truthfully no Bob. Do you feel that is justified?
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mastermindreader
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Where did you get the insane idea that I thought sex was only for procreation? I was (I thought obviously) referring to those whose religions teach that.)

But why are you asking me questions while ignoring mine? I'll ask again-

Have you ever been to an abortion clinic? Do you have any family members who have undergone the procedure? (That you know of.)(I

I already noted in my answer to Lobo what I thought the primary reasons for abortion were, but also pointed out that it's really impossible to know because the doctor patient relationship is private. Please provide support for your contention that women choose abortion more for picking the sex of a child than they do because of rape or incest.

Please cite where you get your information as to the reasons women get abortions in the US.
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On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Aces-

Have you ever been to an abortion clinic? Do you have any family members who have undergone the procedure? (That you know of.)


Never been to an abortion clinic. I know two people who have undergone abortions. I should rather say I know their fathers. I have not really talked to either of the girls about it. Not my place and quite honestly I would not know what to say. I would be walking on eggs. I do know that both did have counseling afterwards at the recommendation of their doctors. I do not know if it was needed but I thought it was a good idea. They both seem to lead normal lives now. Both have since married and one has a child the other does not.

No family members that I know of had an abortion.
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mastermindreader
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Well if they actually went to counseling afterwards, that is an indication that they didn't take it lightly.

But thanks for answering the question.

And for the record, I don't believe that selecting the sex of the child is a good reason to get an abortion. And I know that many doctors will not perform the procedure if they know that is the reason behind it.
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On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Where did you get the insane idea that I thought sex was only for procreation? I was (I thought obviously) referring to those whose religions teach that.)

But why are you asking me questions while ignoring mine? I'll ask again-

Have you ever been to an abortion clinic? Do you have any family members who have undergone the procedure? (That you know of.)(I

I already noted in my answer to Lobo what I thought the primary reasons for abortion were, but also pointed out that it's really impossible to know because the doctor patient relationship is private. Please provide support for your contention that women choose abortion more for picking the sex of a child than they do because of rape or incest.

Please cite where you get your information as to the reasons women get abortions in the US.


I did not go back and read my post but if I said that they have more abortions because they pick the sex of the child as opposed to rape or incest I came across wrong because I have no idea about those numbers. But I do know that according to law having an abortion because you do not care for the gender of the unborn child is a legal reason and justified by the current laws.. Maybe it is just me but I find that horrid.

Here is where I gort most of my information: http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us......tistics/
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tommy
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Right-to-life and legal personhood

United States President George W. Bush signs the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004

Legislative measures sometimes seek to establish a right to life of the fetus from the moment of fertilization. These laws protect the fetus as another member of society.

The 1978 American Convention on Human Rights states, in Article 4.1, "Every person has the right to have his life respected. This right shall be protected by law and, in general, from the moment of conception." The Convention is considered binding only for the 24 of 35 member nations of the Organization of American States who ratified it.

In 1983, the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland, also known as the "Pro-Life Amendment," was added to the Constitution of The Republic of Ireland by popular referendum. It recognizes "the right to life of the unborn".

In 1993, the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany held that the constitution guaranteed a right to life from conception, but that it is within the discretion of parliament not to punish abortion in the first trimester, providing that women agreed to undergo special counselling designed to discourage termination and "protect unborn life".[citation needed] The intermediate decision was the result of an attempt to join East Germany's abortion law to that of West Germany after reunification in 1990.

Other governments have laws in place that state that fetuses are not legally recognized persons:

In Canadian law, under section 223 of the Criminal Code of Canada, a fetus is a "human being ... when it has completely proceeded, in a living state, from the body of its mother whether or not it has completely breathed, it has an independent circulation or the navel string is severed."[4]

Much opposition to legal abortion in the West is based on a concern for fetal rights. Similarly many pro-choice groups oppose fetal rights, even when they do not impinge directly on the abortion issue, because they perceive this as a slippery slope strategy to restricting abortions.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights
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mastermindreader
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I agree. But the fact remains that many doctors will refuse to perform the procedure if that is the reason. Several states have banned the practice completely.

You may be interested in this scientific study of the myths surrounding sex selection abortions:

https://ihrclinic.uchicago.edu/sites/ihr......ates.pdf
R.S.
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Suppose you are the only adult in a fertility clinic. There is also a 5 year old girl (in a wheelchair, say) and a container of 1,000 frozen embryos. A devastating and quick moving fire breaks out and your only option is to either a) carry out the container of embryos, letting the 5 year old perish, or b) carry out the 5 year old girl, letting the 1,000 embryos be destroyed. Which would you choose?


Ron

Let's add that there is also a mother to be there who has fallen and can't get up, who is going to have an abortion. What do you do? Embryo, little girl in wheel chair, PG woman who was going to have an abortion. We could also throw in that there is a suitcase stuffed with 10 million dollars in unmarked bills but I guess that is getting silly isn't it?


Aces, nice deflection. But seriously though, which would you save - the girl or the embryos?


Ron
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acesover
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On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I agree. But the fact remains that many doctors will refuse to perform the procedure if that is the reason. Several states have banned the practice completely.

You may be interested in this scientific study of the myths surrounding sex selection abortions:

https://ihrclinic.uchicago.edu/sites/ihr......ates.pdf


Actually I am somewhat confused. Please don't comment on that Bob. Smile

What I am confused about is if the woman wants an abortion because of the gender of the child and it is prohibited. Why can't she just say she wants an abortion. As from what I gather it is her right under the law to have an abortion if she so desires. So I would imagine that if she wants an abortion she gathers the information that the clinic she desires to use deems acceptable and uses that. Over and done. Abortion OK'd. Does the law give prerequisites on what reasons she can or cannot have an abortion? I thought it was her right under the law that if she wants one she can get it. If that is the case we can never really know the reasons for some abortions.
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mastermindreader
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An interesting thing about the study is that it shows there are many alternate ways, other than abortion, for couples to select the sex of a child, even pre-conception. It also showed that in states that banned abortions for that reason, there was no resulting difference in the ratio of male-female births. Also note that the study wasn't limited to the United States.

The impression I got (and it is just an impression) is that abortions to select the sex of a child aren't anywhere near as common as believed. In other words, it is likely very low on the list of reasons why people get abortions.
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On Sep 3, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Sorry but you and the silly logic tricks trying to play gotcha does not work. Try someone else.

No logic tricks. But certainly there is the expectation of logic in a discussion of this kind. I can understand if you don't wish to partake.
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