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acesover
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, acesover wrote:
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On Sep 2, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Suppose you are the only adult in a fertility clinic. There is also a 5 year old girl (in a wheelchair, say) and a container of 1,000 frozen embryos. A devastating and quick moving fire breaks out and your only option is to either a) carry out the container of embryos, letting the 5 year old perish, or b) carry out the 5 year old girl, letting the 1,000 embryos be destroyed. Which would you choose?


Ron

Let's add that there is also a mother to be there who has fallen and can't get up, who is going to have an abortion. What do you do? Embryo, little girl in wheel chair, PG woman who was going to have an abortion. We could also throw in that there is a suitcase stuffed with 10 million dollars in unmarked bills but I guess that is getting silly isn't it?


Aces, nice deflection. But seriously though, which would you save - the girl or the embryos?


Ron


Quite honestly I would save the girl. Reasons are many. I do not know if any of the said embryos will bear children. Also I have no idea what the owners of said embryos have in mind for those embryos. By that I mean are they going to destroy them if they are not used are they going to continue to have them frozen for eternity if not used? I am not in a position to make that decision for an unknown outcome. Whereas I know that the little girl has been born and is here now living and breathing while I do not know the fate of the embryos. No one does. However that is totally different than an abortion and I hope in all of your wisdom you can see the difference. The frozen embryos are a crap shoot. The little girl is here now and lived through the embryo stage of her life and the fetal development stage of her life. To sacrifice her life for the unknown would be foolish. just for further information even if they were my wife's the little girl would be saved for the same reasons stated. Make whatever you wish out of my answer. Hope that satisfies your curiosity.
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Dannydoyle
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On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
An interesting thing about the study is that it shows there are many alternate ways, other than abortion, for couples to select the sex of a child, even pre-conception. It also showed that in states that banned abortions for that reason, there was no resulting difference in the ratio of male-female births. Also note that the study wasn't limited to the United States.

The impression I got (and it is just an impression) is that abortions to select the sex of a child aren't anywhere near as common as believed. In other words, it is likely very low on the list of reasons why people get abortions.


Believe it or not the Chinese got really good at it at it. The birthing chart is pretty accurate.
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R.S.
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On Sep 3, 2014, acesover wrote:
Quite honestly I would save the girl. Reasons are many. I do not know if any of the said embryos will bear children. Also I have no idea what the owners of said embryos have in mind for those embryos. By that I mean are they going to destroy them if they are not used are they going to continue to have them frozen for eternity if not used? I am not in a position to make that decision for an unknown outcome. Whereas I know that the little girl has been born and is here now living and breathing while I do not know the fate of the embryos. No one does. However that is totally different than an abortion and I hope in all of your wisdom you can see the difference. The frozen embryos are a crap shoot. The little girl is here now and lived through the embryo stage of her life and the fetal development stage of her life. To sacrifice her life for the unknown would be foolish. just for further information even if they were my wife's the little girl would be saved for the same reasons stated. Make whatever you wish out of my answer. Hope that satisfies your curiosity.



Thanks for your thoughtful response. Presumably, the embryos will all be used. And since the pro-life advocates claim that life begins at the instant of conception, there are 1,000 lives at stake here. Life is life, right? That's what we've heard over and over. But this scenario demonstrates we all value the life of a 5 year old much more than that of an embryo or a blastocyst or even a fetus. Variations of this scenario can be agonizingly difficult. And I'm not claiming there is an easy answer or even a "right" answer. There is a lot of gray area here. And since gray seems to dominate, I (and many others in the pro-choice camp) feel that these tough decisions are best left to the mother. She can evaluate her own life circumstances and decide what to do with her own body much better than anyone else can for her. That seems reasonable.

And by the way, I would love to see the day where there are NO abortions at all! And I think that allowing teens access to birth control (along with the proper sex education) would greatly reduce the abortion rate. Do you agree?

Thanks.

Ron
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Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).

I thought all of those sperm were waiting to be put into women, I didn't know that the female cells were mixed in with the males while in storage. Maybe I'm wrong though. But if not, there isn't 1,000 developing children at stake.
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The question was about embryos, not sperm.
balducci
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Speaking of frozen embryos:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/living/fro......-relate/

"The first option we considered with our remaining embryos was to do nothing. Just leave them on ice and make a decision later. They can stay frozen for a long time -- in 2005, a child was born from an embryo frozen 13 years earlier -- though our clinic recommends waiting no more than seven years. We asked, "What happens if we don't pay?" The doctor shrugged. "Would you destroy them?" The doctor shook her head. In my experience fertility doctors shrug a lot. There's a lot of guesswork. Of course they keep billing you."

"No one knows exactly how many embryos are out there, in liquid nitrogen. The low-end estimate is hundreds of thousands in the United States, but some people say as many as a million. It's a pretty good business; think of the $1,200 a year we pay. So it could come to something like $600 million a year in freezing."
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Quote:
On Sep 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
The question was about embryos, not sperm.


Thanks for the clarification
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Some topics, they are so emotive that people become violent over them. It is a wonder, it seems to me, that we have not seen a few mass shootings at abortion places and the like cindering the amount of guns and emotions and all I mean, these shooters, the ones who kill kids, they don't seem to have a motive and are seem quite emotionless to me.
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There HAVE been shootings, and bombings, at abortion clinics.
acesover
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Quote:
On Sep 4, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, acesover wrote:
Quite honestly I would save the girl. Reasons are many. I do not know if any of the said embryos will bear children. Also I have no idea what the owners of said embryos have in mind for those embryos. By that I mean are they going to destroy them if they are not used are they going to continue to have them frozen for eternity if not used? I am not in a position to make that decision for an unknown outcome. Whereas I know that the little girl has been born and is here now living and breathing while I do not know the fate of the embryos. No one does. However that is totally different than an abortion and I hope in all of your wisdom you can see the difference. The frozen embryos are a crap shoot. The little girl is here now and lived through the embryo stage of her life and the fetal development stage of her life. To sacrifice her life for the unknown would be foolish. just for further information even if they were my wife's the little girl would be saved for the same reasons stated. Make whatever you wish out of my answer. Hope that satisfies your curiosity.



Thanks for your thoughtful response. Presumably, the embryos will all be used. And since the pro-life advocates claim that life begins at the instant of conception, there are 1,000 lives at stake here. Life is life, right? That's what we've heard over and over. But this scenario demonstrates we all value the life of a 5 year old much more than that of an embryo or a blastocyst or even a fetus. Variations of this scenario can be agonizingly difficult. And I'm not claiming there is an easy answer or even a "right" answer. There is a lot of gray area here. And since gray seems to dominate, I (and many others in the pro-choice camp) feel that these tough decisions are best left to the mother. She can evaluate her own life circumstances and decide what to do with her own body much better than anyone else can for her. That seems reasonable.

And by the way, I would love to see the day where there are NO abortions at all! And I think that allowing teens access to birth control (along with the proper sex education) would greatly reduce the abortion rate. Do you agree?

Thanks.

Ron


What do you mean the embryos will all be used? Just because you have 1000 embryos does not constitute 1000 births or even further development of them. Many of these artificially made embryos do not survive to bear a child. Also many are not used. As once the let us all them parents finally conceive a child they may only want one and what do they do with the rest? Some continue to keep them frozen, but to what end I do not know. Some just have them destroyed.

The decision for choosing to save the girl is not difficult as there is no telling what will happen with the embryos. But the little girl is here now. She has already went through the development of birth and survived. The embryos are still very fragile and again no telling they will survive and if so for how long.

Lastly I have an issue with this sort of conception especially when it brings in a third party besides the parents who will raise the child. Maybe there is a reason these two people cannot conceive and it should be left that way. Again that is just me. Not a moral issue but just an issue as that it may not be normal for this couple to have children. Why? I do not know. Maybe nothing, but perhaps something in later generations may crop up and present problems. I do not know. Nature has a way of protecting itself. Bringing new life into the world is completely different than saving what is already here.
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Dannydoyle
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On Sep 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
There HAVE been shootings, and bombings, at abortion clinics.


Yes in order to show murder is wrong. What is hypocritical about that? I hope everyone sees the sarcasm there.
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tommy
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Hmmm sorry, I can't recall hearing of any.
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On Sep 4, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
There HAVE been shootings, and bombings, at abortion clinics.


Yes in order to show murder is wrong. What is hypocritical about that? I hope everyone sees the sarcasm there.



Probably not the primary purpose.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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How about a video of the guy who shot his own son because he mistook him for a burglar?
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Or the people who died doing bullet catches?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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Those would be good too. How about the idiot who shot the teenage girl in the face with a shotgun when she came to his door looking for help after a car accident? Didn't he just get convicted of second degree murder?
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Don't give the 15% too much "ammo," or they're going to start wondering why you support gun ownership!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
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Quote:
On Sep 4, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 4, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
There HAVE been shootings, and bombings, at abortion clinics.


Yes in order to show murder is wrong. What is hypocritical about that? I hope everyone sees the sarcasm there.



Probably not the primary purpose.

To align it with the guns don't/people do dogma....Surely they should be harassing the people not the clinics?
When will anti gun demo's start targeting munitions/arms factories? It seems the people get off lightly on one side of the
extremist argument, but not on the other. When in the eyes of the self righteous, by their reckoning, it should be vice versa.
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On Sep 4, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Don't give the 15% too much "ammo," or they're going to start wondering why you support gun ownership!


RESPONSIBLE gun ownership.
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