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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Guns don't kill people... (35 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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rockwall
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Can't most accidents be avoided somehow?
Dannydoyle
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I think this one certainly could have.

And that is the point that most accidents can be avoided.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
rockwall
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I 'think' we agree. My point was simply that because it could have been avoided doesn't make it NOT an accident.
tommy
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Personally, I wouldn't dream of letting any nine year child touch any gun in any normal circumstances. I think the government ought to charged with negligence for making laws that allow it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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R.S.
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, rockwall wrote:
The question I have about this whole thread is why would someone choose this tragic accident to try and make a point? I mean, how many deaths a year can be attributed to 9 year old girls shooting uzi’s? What solution do have to prevent similar tragedies? Make it against the law for children to shoot uzi’s? OK, how many lives do you think you will save? 1, 2, 5?

If you have a problem with the gun culture in America, there are much worse recent tragedies to try and make your point. I find it much more tragic the number of kids and deaths by shooting that occur in Chicago on a regular basis. Over the August 22nd weekend there were 30 shootings, including several children. Earlier in the week a nine year old boy was shot six times. This isn’t a one-time occurrence, it’s a regular occurrence. I find this infinitely more tragic than the horrific accident in the OP. It was an accident. Admittedly, one caused by extremely poor judgment. But what’s happening in Chicago isn’t an accident.

So, what’s your solution for that? Chicago already has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.
And while you may believe that “it is safe to be coloured and walk our streets”, it’s actually safe in most of the US also. Unless you’re in Chicago. Blacks are killed by other blacks in around 93% of cases. Now THAT’S a tragedy. You want to blame that on all those black crackers?

Thanks to landmark for pointing out the Propaganda Model conceptualized by Chomskey and Herman which seems pertinent to this discussion. They discuss how the media will cover certain stories to benefit a section of power but ignore stories that hurt the powerless. The scandal that is Chicago is hurting the powerless much more than either this story of an accidental shooting or the shooting in Ferguson.


Translation... the problem is not with our nation's gun obsession, lax gun laws, or parental lapses of judgment. No. It's with them "thugs" in Chicago and Ferguson.


Ron


I'm assuming that you're being ironic here, but whether accidental or not, you're at least partially right. Most of the problem is, of course, with the people who use guns to commit murders and armed robberies.


Cute. But we both know what Rockwall was referring to, now don't we (wink, wink). He took a thread about a specific incident (a 9 year old girl being handed a live Uzi), and injected race into it.

Ron


Actually, TonyB injected race into the discussion, but it's fairly typical around here (and elsewhere) to focus much more scrutiny on those you disagree with.


Technically, you are correct Lobo. TonyB did bring up "race." But imo, Rockwall injected racism into the discussion. So that's the word I probably should have used. Nevertheless, you'd have to be pretty naive to deny the racial (racist?) overtones of the post. Just saying.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is fairly typical around here to focus much more scrutiny on those you disagree with.

Thanks.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
LobowolfXXX
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I don't agree with your analysis, but I appreciate your response. In the interest of remaining an active Magic Café member, I won't elaborate. Smile
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
TonyB2009
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On Aug 29, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Tony still waiting for those studies where you back up the 50% claim.

Danny, read one of my books. I am not going to do the work for you.

Or consider prohibition. During the prohibition era disorganised thuggery morphed into organised crime syndicates, which are now so firmly entrenched they are almost impossible for law enforcement to defeat. The western world's prohibition on soft drugs is having the same effect. I lived in Limerick for a decade, in the heart of the gang war here. Without illegal soft drugs there would have been no gangs. And half the murders in Ireland today are gang related.
TonyB2009
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On Aug 29, 2014, The Hermit wrote:
TonyB2009 - Why the harping on redneck gun culture? As a Redneck (southerner) I object. Gun ownership is widespread and hunting culture (primary source of gun ownership) cuts across all demographics. Most of the gun ownership is for hunting and not recreational shooting. There is nothing inherently 'Redneck' about gun ownership.

There is a big difference between a gun culture and a hunting culture. From your post you sound like a hunter, and I agree, there is nothing inherently redneck about being a hunter. Here is a question to consider - would you use an Uzi on the hunt? I suspect not.

Finland, a country I spend a lot of time in, has a hunting culture. Lots of people own guns. Very few own handguns or assault rifles, or Uzis. It is a hunting culture rather than a gun culture. The guns are just tools, and they use the appropriate ones in the appropriate settings.

A lot of America has a gun culture rather than a hunting culture - Uzis, handguns, carrying concealed weapons in urban settings. There's the redneck element.
TonyB2009
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On Aug 28, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Aug 28, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
How about giving us those studies and facts?

Read one of my books:
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Feud-Gangla......y+galvin
or
http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Streets-Murd......y+galvin


I'll support my fellow magician and give one of your books a whirl...got a recommendation for a starter pick?

Family Feud is the more comprehensive book, but difficult to get a hold of. Blood on the Streets is more lightweight and populist.

I liked your comment about the qualification to be a writer is access to a pen or a computer. With self-publishing, unfortunately very very true. Unrelated to the topic under discussion, but a guy once presented me with his book and asked me to show it to my publishers. It was 120,000 words long, all in CAPS and without a single punctuation mark or paragraph break. The mind boggles.
LobowolfXXX
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Not many legal concealed weapons in urban settings. That's one of the reasons criminals thrive there.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
How about giving us those studies and facts?

Read one of my books:
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Feud-Gangla......y+galvin
or
http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Streets-Murd......y+galvin


I'll support my fellow magician and give one of your books a whirl...got a recommendation for a starter pick?

Family Feud is the more comprehensive book, but difficult to get a hold of. Blood on the Streets is more lightweight and populist.

I liked your comment about the qualification to be a writer is access to a pen or a computer. With self-publishing, unfortunately very very true. Unrelated to the topic under discussion, but a guy once presented me with his book and asked me to show it to my publishers. It was 120,000 words long, all in CAPS and without a single punctuation mark or paragraph break. The mind boggles.


I found a copy of Family Feud...it's on the way.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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So you make claims and don't give data?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
acesover
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Is there something someone can post to get this thread deleted? Smile It is the same rhetoric on guns over and over again.

Lets see now:

All guns are bad. No they aren't. Yes they are.

It is the individual not the gun. It is the gun. If we banned all guns everything would be fine. No it wouldn't. Yes it would.

America has a terrible gun culture and all the other countries are better. You are wrong. No I am not. there was a poll that said guns are bad. Well I have one that says guns are good. Yours is biased mine isn't.

Joe Blow says guns are bad. Well I say that, Joe Blow is a left wing liberal.

John Smith says guns are good and necessary. Well I say that, John Smith is a right wing conservative redneck.

People should not be allowed to buy the kind of guns I do not like because I say so. I think those black ones are bad and are made for killing and not for anything else. But there are thousands and thousands of them that never killed anyone. Yea well just wait. And on and on.

Oh yeah. Well what about abortion? WHAT?

Does this sound familiar?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I don't think that making an activity - even an inherently dangerous activity - legal necessarily creates fault. Congress could make baseball illegal; does the fact that they didn't make it there fault that Ray Chapman died (after getting struck in the head by a pitch, way back in the day)?


Not sure if you're still addressing my analogy concerning 9 year old driving semis, but if you are:

I disagree totally. Making an activity that is inherently dangerous legal necessarily creates fault. Maybe not legally, but certainly morally to my mind. Baseball is not inherently dangerous. A 9 year old shooting an Uzi is. No study needs to be done of how many people 9 year old Uzi-toters don't kill--as you yourself pointed out you would not give an Uzi to a 9 year old. I contend no reasonable person would. That's standard enough for me.
landmark
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On Aug 29, 2014, rockwall wrote:
And finally, in the spirit of simplistic questions that have been asked in this thread:

Is there anyone here who thinks that what is happening in Chicago with the number of weekly shootings and deaths is LESS tragic than what happened with the 9 year old girl?


And are you prepared to support policies that address the conditions that cause those tragedies or is this just a talking point?
LobowolfXXX
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On Aug 30, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, rockwall wrote:
And finally, in the spirit of simplistic questions that have been asked in this thread:

Is there anyone here who thinks that what is happening in Chicago with the number of weekly shootings and deaths is LESS tragic than what happened with the 9 year old girl?


And are you prepared to support policies that address the conditions that cause those tragedies or is this just a talking point?


Free will gets such a bad rap anymore.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 29, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I don't think that making an activity - even an inherently dangerous activity - legal necessarily creates fault. Congress could make baseball illegal; does the fact that they didn't make it there fault that Ray Chapman died (after getting struck in the head by a pitch, way back in the day)?


Not sure if you're still addressing my analogy concerning 9 year old driving semis, but if you are:

I disagree totally. Making an activity that is inherently dangerous legal necessarily creates fault. Maybe not legally, but certainly morally to my mind. Baseball is not inherently dangerous. A 9 year old shooting an Uzi is. No study needs to be done of how many people 9 year old Uzi-toters don't kill--as you yourself pointed out you would not give an Uzi to a 9 year old. I contend no reasonable person would. That's standard enough for me.


I'm not being facetious here: What do you mean by "inherently dangerous"?

I think it would possibly be a misnomer to say that a nine year old shooting an Uzi at a firing range with a qualified instructor is more inherently dangerous than adults playing baseball if baseball caused more deaths per capita.

I would assume, though, that you would agree that boxing is inherently dangerous, and therefore legislators are at fault for each boxing death, as it is not illegal?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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Drugs are inherently dangerous. We outlaw the very dangerous ones. Look how that works out for curbing the behavior.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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I wish Stone were here. That said, I find it really interesting that some believe that there a moral responsibility to do things that others don't believe there's even a moral right to do.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Quote:
I'm not being facetious here: What do you mean by "inherently dangerous"?


I think I already answered that--that which a reasonable person--say yourself-- would consider dangerous. And yes there are grey areas. But that doesn't mean there are not black and white areas as well. A nine year old with an Uzi is inherently dangerous. You can break down the component parts if you like: Nine year old + Uzi= Inherent Danger.

The analogy to drugs fails. Drugs are a danger only to the taker, and taken with consent. A nine year old cannot give informed consent.

With regard to boxing, do you think cockfighting should be legal? How about boxing with nine year olds?
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